Disillusioned wiht my Wing Chun training

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
21

Please note im not saying im disillusioned with wing chun itself – im sure the art or the million different takes on it work for different people.

I’ve only been training 2 years (three times a week every week) but find it hard to realistically apply wing chun. I don’t mean one attack, one defend scenarios – but when the training is picked up, and defending/sparring against a non-compliant partner (particularly from different style) my technique does not hold up. It often disintegrates into a basic boxing style scenario.

I wonder what people’s thoughts are on this. Is likely to be the length of time I have been training, the style itself, the method of training (application/drill heavy, with less emphasis initially on the forms, and some modifications of these from the traditional system to make them more). I know I’m not giving you enough info on my case but wondered if people had similar frustrations, etc. in their training.

Thanks

wcisformen,
Hello,
Your scenario is not a new one most of the people on this forum are, have been where you are or are heading in that direction. Most often the results of this experience will be to learn a single technique or a group or cluster of techniques and precision their execution to the point of false belief that when you use them you are utilizing the wing chun maxim of most efficient. When actually this type of training is moving away from the fundamental training of Wing Chun. The most recognizable trait of wing chun center line theory is what we need examine to stay clear of this mistake.

Center line theory teaches the wing chun practitioner several principles to adhere to in order to affect and maintaine a since of efficiency in combat. Understand that center line theory derived from the “King of the battle field weapons” the spear teaches that when a bridge between two combatants is made using the spear you will recognize true center and the most efficient path of your enemies destruction or that of your own. Though this knowledge is still taught in most wing chuns classes it is not as easily recognized once the spear has been removed from your hands. So we must learn the value of the principle secondly we must learn to recognize the principle in action before it can ever be applied.

So before you build on the center line theory you must be able to explain and execute the principle in practice. So how does one recognize the true center before during and after a bridge has been established. First your instructor will tell you, then he will show you, then you will practice it in your form and then you will practice with a partner all this will build your sense of body karma and enable you to instinctively get to where you want to go.

So where is true center and how does one come to understand that it is true. First the principle teaches us that only one object can occupy a specific space at a specific time. So first object to the space owns the space. Secondly after making the bridge 2 areas of focus that provide you lease of the space are the elbow and the wrist. It is the wrist that aligns to center with the elbow in locking position this secures the bridge. How can we be certain of this … because if the elbow is out the wrist can easily be taken off center in the directionof the elbow. If the wrist passes center then the connecting bridge will just be assisting in collapsing your wrist inward. Which tells us there is only one specific true center that will not allow a connecting bridge any passage.

find it hard to realistically apply wing chun.
When the specifics of wing chun are not adhered to then it really isn’t wing chun. So when you bridge on center are you really on center or somewhere about there.

The moral of the story:

You could have a bright fancy fast car but if you can’t find your keys you’re going to be late to work just like the rest of us. Understand the first principle and build on it. Understand the second principle and build on it and so on and so on and I guarantee better more realistic application and execution will follow.

Keep practicing there is always more to learn.

22

I would think iron palm would be integral to making Wing Chun work. Since the Wing Chun system doesn’t really teach people to really haul off before hitting someone, I would think having brass knuckles for hands would be integral to making the punches and palms worth anything. Do you guys think it is has any importance? Am I alone on this?

23

[QUOTE=Faruq;718299]I would think iron palm would be integral to making Wing Chun work. Since the Wing Chun system doesn’t really teach people to really haul off before hitting someone, I would think having brass knuckles for hands would be integral to making the punches and palms worth anything. Do you guys think it is has any importance? Am I alone on this?[/QUOTE]

As Kevin said…hit heavy bags, wall bags and focus mitts. You need to know if your fist is tight enough, etc to be able to hit these targets…then you’ll know if you can hit a jaw! Sparring is good too…but only after some skill on your part has been copped.

I don’t think Iron Palm per se is necessary. Everything comes with time…your stance, your conditioning (cardio/body) and your skill. Give yourself a few years…relax…enjoy the journey.

Best,
Kenton Sefcik

24

Yeah, but the iron palm’d get you over in the mean time. Plus, not every guy that opens a school has or teaches great fundamentals. In those cases, your stance, your conditioning (cardio/body) and your skill may never come. I think having brass knuckles for fists would get you over. Plus, how is a 5’ 3" guy gonna beat someone 6’ 3" and over 200 lbs?

Also, I’d ask how many people seriously want to put in the amount of time it takes to master a system? If you just do it to have something to do 3 nights a week, that’s great, but then don’t complain if you can’t fight with it. Do you think the Ip brothers or any of the sifu qualified under them would certify a guy who wasn’t a seasoned iron palm practitioner as a sifu? And if you’re not really trying to master the system, how can you really expect it to work for you against all challengers?

Do sifu of the system, and did the sifu throughout the Wing Chun lineage traditionally practice iron palm? If you don’t do what they did, how can you expect it to work for you like it worked for them? I guess this is just what I personally would do, before actually expecting to be able to defend myself with it. I dunno.

25

[QUOTE=Faruq;718310]Yeah, but the iron palm’d get you over in the mean time. Plus, not every guy that opens a school has or teaches great fundamentals. In those cases, your stance, your conditioning (cardio/body) and your skill may never come. I think having brass knuckles for fists would get you over. Plus, how is a 5’ 3" guy gonna beat someone 6’ 3" and over 200 lbs?

Also, I’d ask how many people seriously want to put in the amount of time it takes to master a system? If you just do it to have something to do 3 nights a week, that’s great, but then don’t complain if you can’t fight with it. Do you think the Ip brothers or any of the sifu qualified under them would certify a guy who wasn’t a seasoned iron palm practitioner as a sifu? And if you’re not really trying to master the system, how can you really expect it to work for you against all challengers?

Do sifu of the system, and did the sifu throughout the Wing Chun lineage traditionally practice iron palm? If you don’t do what they did, how can you expect it to work for you like it worked for them? I guess this is just what I personally would do, before actually expecting to be able to defend myself with it. I dunno.[/QUOTE]

I personally don’t care what people of the past have done. I don’t think that it’s needed to practice like a monk to master a system. I only practice twice a week. I’m only 150 lbs soaking wet, however I do believe that after 8 years of Karate and then 3 years of WC - that I can handle my stuff.

WC won’t make me invincible…I’m not perfect in my execution…I expect to get hit, etc. With regards to Iron Palm…we could say this about anything, really:

I need to learn Iron Palm to be a good fighter and bridge that gap…

I need to learn Ground Fighting to be a good fighter and bridge that gap…

or whatever. I, like others, have a wife, child, 2 cats, dog, career, friends,etc.

Balance is important.

Anywho…as you said:

“I guess this is just what I personally would do, before actually expecting to be able to defend myself with it.”

If you believe that…then it’s true! If that’s what works for you, do it!

All the best,
Kenton Sefcik

26

Yeah, but the iron palm’d get you over in the mean time. Plus, not every guy that opens a school has or teaches great fundamentals.

It’s far easier to find someone who can teach decent fighting fundamentals than it is someone who can teach iron palm.

If taught or practised improperly, iron palm can affect your health adversely and significantly. And it can make your bones, harder but more brittle.

Iron palm won’t do anything for you if you can’t hit with a decent delivery system of sound body mechanics in any case. It’s the icing on the cake, and you can’t survive on that alone.

Buy a firearm if this sort of thing worries you, they’re much easier to come by and to use than is sound iron palm instruction.

Do you think the Ip brothers or any of the sifu qualified under them would certify a guy who wasn’t a seasoned iron palm practitioner as a sifu?

Yep, I reckon they would, and have. And opinions vary on whether they are the benchmark for WC.

Plus, how is a 5’ 3" guy gonna beat someone 6’ 3" and over 200 lbs?

With great difficulty, with or without iron palm. Sad but true.

Do sifu of the system, and did the sifu throughout the Wing Chun lineage traditionally practice iron palm?

Some do, some don’t. Iron palm practice is not what made the effective ones effective.

27

Well I stand corrected! LOL No, you guys make good points. It does make sense that it would be as hard to find a sifu to teach iron palm properly as the rest of the stuff.

“I personally don’t care what people of the past have done. I don’t think that it’s needed to practice like a monk to master a system. I only practice twice a week. I’m only 150 lbs soaking wet, however I do believe that after 8 years of Karate and then 3 years of WC - that I can handle my stuff…”

I don’t think that you have to be a monk to be a sifu. I would think the quote above would probably be the sentiment of a lot of people, and it really spoke to me. My point wasn’t that you had to train like a monk to become a master, but more if you only train 3 nights a week are you ever gonna master any system? I wouldn’t expect anyone to give up their life to be a master of Wing Chun (though you’d probably have to to become a serious fighter in any pugilistic art). I would expect that lots of masters don’t even have schools. Probably some business owners in the mix here and there, people who have their basements layed out like a kwoon with all the equipment, but no monks.

And as far as the comment about the Ips, you guys’re right. That’s only one school out of hundreds of Wing Chun systems. Plus, I only knew one guy certified in the Ip system. That guy didn’t practice karate or other arts, had to live or die on Wing Chun alone, and did do iron palm. But having known one guy certified under them doesn’t really qualify me to speak on what they require of their people. My point in mentioning them was, do you think two guys whose whole livelyhood is based on their reputation, would allow someone who hadn’t mastered iron palm to represent their method?

I’d even go to as far as to ask, wouldn’t many laugh at someone who marketed themselves as a sifu but hadn’t trained their hands in the traditional method? I personally consider that iron palm is the traditional method developed to give anyone a decent punch, considering that many people couldn’t punch their way out of a paper bag with the hand that genetics had dealt them. Also considering how many practitioners of traditional martial arts in the U.S. don’t practice iron palm, and comparing that to the number of practitioners that couldn’t hold their own against a MMA practitioner: “could there be a correlation?” I was just throwing out something that I hadn’t seen considered seriously in the thread. But I think like you guys say, whatever works for you.

28

I personally consider that iron palm is the traditional method developed to give anyone a decent punch, considering that many people couldn’t punch their way out of a paper bag with the hand that genetics had dealt them.

I’m not sure I understand what your definition of Iron Palm is.
Do you mean just toughening your knuckles?

Or does that include training the power of the punch?

29

I personally consider that iron palm is the traditional method developed to give anyone a decent punch, considering that many people couldn’t punch their way out of a paper bag with the hand that genetics had dealt them.

Iron palm, as I believe is generally understood(with a nod to Edmund’s last post), is a means of toughening the hands using impact conditioning with various materials, and treatment with herbal and other substances.

If practised over a long period, it will (allegedly) give your hands the ability to withstand (and therefore, POSSIBLY deliver) greater impacts without injury. Having conditioned hands will not give you the ability to hit hard, only proper use of coordinated body mechanics will allow that.

Also considering how many practitioners of traditional martial arts in the U.S. don’t practice iron palm, and comparing that to the number of practitioners that couldn’t hold their own against a MMA practitioner: “could there be a correlation?”

Unlikely. Much more likely is the WCer’s unfamiliarity with the fighting styles of their opponents, and overconfidence in their own abilities and limitations.

I’d even go to as far as to ask, wouldn’t many laugh at someone who marketed themselves as a sifu but hadn’t trained their hands in the traditional method?

I expect there are plenty of such people around that can teach and employ MA successfully. Some people are musicians, doctors, artists, etc. who do not want to rish their hands to such a regime. It’s generally been presented to me as something for the extremely committed, or slightly mad, student, and not something you keep up all the time, as it’s too easy to suffer adverse effects to your health.

Also, like many aspects of TCMA, the exploits and abilities of “Iron Palm Masters” have more often than not been either hugely exaggerated or are complete fiction. You are giving what is in effect something of a curiosity a legitimacy and importance it does not deserve.

I’ve had the opportunity to do iron palm, but have elected not to. Some of my sihings have done it mainly before fights or because they went through a phase where they were interested in breaking boards and bricks. I have a life, and do not need to defend, without weapons, my village from pillaging Manchus.

And as far as fighting the MMA crowd grows, I feel I’ve adopted a far more effective strategy, supplementing my WC training with Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and Vale Tudo. Some of my fellow students have succeed in the ring in kickboxing and amateur MMA without any Iron Palm training.

Do it if you want. I’d question whether it is really an effective use of valuable training time.

30

My definition of iron palm is using bags filled with different substances and Dit Da Jow to condition the entire hand to deliver more force in a blow than it would without such training. Many look like what Augustine Fong showed in his Panther series. Of course there are lots of different jows, and lots of different ways to position the bags that you’re gonna be conditioning your hands against, but that’s the best generic definition I can come up with at this moment.

[QUOTE=Edmund;718408]I’m not sure I understand what your definition of Iron Palm is.
Do you mean just toughening your knuckles?

Or does that include training the power of the punch?[/QUOTE]

31

[QUOTE=Faruq;718436]My definition of iron palm is using bags filled with different substances and Dit Da Jow to condition the entire hand to deliver more force in a blow than it would without such training. Of course there are lots of different jows, and lots of different ways to position the bags that you’re gonna be conditioning your hands against, but that’s the best generic definition I can come up with at this moment.[/QUOTE]

Well how’s that helping the 5’3 guy against Godzilla? I don’t think his hand conditioning is the major factor in determining the winner.

He’s still going to get beaten senseless but his hands will look real nice.

32

[QUOTE=anerlich;718428]If practised over a long period, it will (allegedly) give your hands the ability to withstand (and therefore, POSSIBLY deliver) greater impacts without injury. Having conditioned hands will not give you the ability to hit hard, only proper use of coordinated body mechanics will allow that.

I expect there are plenty of such people around that can teach and employ MA successfully. Some people are musicians, doctors, artists, etc. who do not want to rish their hands to such a regime. It’s generally been presented to me as something for the extremely committed, or slightly mad, student, and not something you keep up all the time, as it’s too easy to suffer adverse effects to your health.

Also, like many aspects of TCMA, the exploits and abilities of “Iron Palm Masters” have more often than not been either hugely exaggerated or are complete fiction. You are giving what is in effect something of a curiosity a legitimacy and importance it does not deserve.
[/QUOTE]

A very well thought out, point by point argument. I don’t think anything I’d say would convince you that there was any value in iron palm, so I won’t try. I’ll just respond to a few of the points you made, with more of my opinion.

First, it has been my experience that even heavy hands alone make a difference in the type of punch you deliver, not to mention increasing blood flow, tendon bone muscle and skin density through the practice of iron palm (and that’s not even addressing it’s real purpose of dramatically increasing your ability to transfer energy into your target/opponent). Buddies who grew up boxing in local city park districts have also attested to the difference in getting punched by heavy handed fighters, and a lot of the boxers, like a lot of Wing Chun practitioners never achieve proper use of coordinated body mechanics. So it’s not like they could be confusing all the heavy handed fighters with people who just have proper punching mechanics. Plus I’ve done chi sau with people that train their hands (though I admit its been a while), and their hands and forearms felt like steel. I never saw them break any boards or bricks I admit, but doing chi sau and techniques with them was painful enough.

Second, I’m not surprised the iron palm would have been presented to you in that fashion by your teachers, as becoming competent fighters frequently means the students feeling they’ve accomplished what they wanted to, and saving money by practicing on their own instead of continuing to take classes indefinately. So in presenting it to students, teachers risk losing them once they achieve real power.

Third, I’m not surprised that people who only did it before a fight wouldn’t have a high oinion of it. Iron palm takes years to develop any real power, so doing it for a few months before a fight wouldn’t give you any discernable difference in your punch.

Last, iron palm is neither an exaggeration, curiosity or complete fiction to me. I’m not saying its the panacea to all deficiencies in a fighter. Nor did I attibute any fictional powers to it. I gave it the very standard ability of giving anyone the ability to deliver a decent punch. What’s so fantastic about that? LOL.

33

[QUOTE=Edmund;718437]Well how’s that helping the 5’3 guy against Godzilla? I don’t think his hand conditioning is the major factor in determining the winner.

He’s still going to get beaten senseless but his hands will look real nice.[/QUOTE]

Daaaammmnnn, Eddie! That’s cold!

Okay, you got me. But getting hit in the knee, testes, pelvic bone, bladder, stomach, floating ribs, arm, elbow or face with brass knuckles would hurt Godzilla wouldn’t it? That’s the kind of hand power I’m talking about. Add that to the speed, technique, fighting theory and skill of the accomplished Wing Chun fighter and you’ve got a much better combination than you had without it. Nothing fantastic, just a hand so conditioned to delivering force that the speed alone generated with good Wing Chun training would make it painful.

34

[QUOTE=Faruq;718445]Daaaammmnnn, Eddie! That’s cold!

Okay, you got me. But getting hit in the knee, testes, pelvic bone, bladder, stomach, floating ribs, arm, elbow or face with brass knuckles would hurt Godzilla wouldn’t it? That’s the kind of hand power I’m talking about. Add that to the speed, technique, fighting theory and skill of the accomplished Wing Chun fighter and you’ve got a much better combination than you had without it. Nothing fantastic, just a hand so conditioned to delivering force that the speed alone generated with good Wing Chun training would make it painful.[/QUOTE]

I guess I would agree that your hand conditioning is ONE factor but you’ve just mentioned some others (speed, technique, fighting theory and skill) that would be of greater importance. So I don’t know why you say iron palm is integral to WC.

If that’s the case ,then by extrapolation why not Iron Shirt too?

35

I should preface this post by saying that:

1.This thread was started by someone disillusioned with his training. Anerlich and Edmund, you guys obviously are not.

  1. A lot of people who study martial arts were bullied or took some beatings, saw a martial artist administer a dramatic beatdown (whether in a movie, or in person) on one or more people that had started trouble with him, and said to themselves “I’ve got to learn to do that!”

  2. I’ve got to recognize that different people like to train different things, and as I might prefer not to train extra time on what they specifically put their extra training time into, you might choose not to go beyond the average iron palm training (but skip it altogether? C’mon.) and train your extra time in forms, speed or flow for example.

Now, since this is just my personal opinion, largely predicated upon by the schools I’ve been in, and the fact that iron palm was considered one of the basic Wing Chun skills by that teacher, I’m going to believe it’s one of the things skills every competent Wing Chun fighter would have. But to answer your question “Why iron palm?” Because without punching power, a fight could last for hours. lol. Because of the fact that the Wing Chun fighter never commits his whole body to one punch, I have never seen it generate the type of punching power that let’s say a boxer would, or someone else who turns with their punches or hauls off and punches someone would without iron palm. In my experience, the punch of the Wing Chun guy who doesn’t do iron palm would have power more comparable to a jab, than an overhand right, hook or uppercut where there’s the turning of the whole body into the punch. And though a jab is often a very pesky punch, it doesn’t frequently bring a fight to a quick close unless followed by a power punch.

And why not iron shirt? Getting hit was never as a big a concern in the school I went to as having a powerful punch. All the blocking and punching at the same time would get a non-Wing Chun guy out of your face real quick. But iron shirt isn’t bad. Though it involves more chi gong, and herbs than iron palm, so finding a qualified teacher of it would probably be even more difficult than finding a qualified teacher of iron palm.

Lastly, all the TCMA sifus whose fighting ability I’ve ever been impressed with practiced it. And you never wanted to practice a technique more than once or twice with them because your arms were sore immediately. But if it’s not important to you guys, I have to respect that. 'Nuff said.

36

[QUOTE=Faruq;718487]I should preface this post by saying that:
2. A lot of people who study martial arts were bullied or took some beatings, saw a martial artist administer a dramatic beatdown (whether in a movie, or in person) on one or more people that had started trouble with him, and said to themselves “I’ve got to learn to do that!”
[/QUOTE]

And now I spend too much time in the kwoon or on this forum for anything ever to happen to me! :slight_smile:

Best,
Kenton Sefcik

37

On a trivial note…

The ancient Greek pankratists would do similar things (punching stone, being hit by clubs/sticks, etc. and then healing with herbs) as a general means of ‘toughening’ the body. As well as those of ancient, southern India…So, this ‘practice’ has exsisted, more or less globally for thousands of years.:cool:

As stated, though, this kind of conditioning is low priority compared to that of speed, timing, strength, etc.

38

[QUOTE=couch;718503]And now I spend too much time in the kwoon or on this forum for anything ever to happen to me! :slight_smile:

Best,
Kenton Sefcik[/QUOTE]

That’s cold, Kenton! LOL! But you’re right, so what can I say?

39

[QUOTE=AmanuJRY;718510]As stated, though, this kind of conditioning is low priority compared to that of speed, timing, strength, etc.[/QUOTE]

But you’re obviously not disillusioned with your training though. Anyone who is has to examine all the things they’re doing, and if they’re leaving something out, that could be the reason. I think its actually equally important as conditioning speed, timing, strength, etc. No sifu’s gonna let you pick and choose what you learn and what you don’t, and still let you represent him and his system, right? Well actually, I could be wrong, so don’t answer that.

Not but in honesty, I don’t have any proof to support my belief other than my personal life experience. I guess since it’s my belief based on my personal experiences, that’s why I put so much time into backing it up. You guys checked me though. I guess if most of the guys in Hong Kong and mainland Wing Chun don’t do iron palm, it’s really not that important like you guys say. I would wager that they do, but unfortunately I have no way of knowing one way or the other.

40

Second, I’m not surprised the iron palm would have been presented to you in that fashion by your teachers, as becoming competent fighters frequently means the students feeling they’ve accomplished what they wanted to, and saving money by practicing on their own instead of continuing to take classes indefinately. So in presenting it to students, teachers risk losing them once they achieve real power.

LOL! You are paranoid and way off base with this stuff. You’re assuming all most teachers care about is money and they’re scared ****less of losing students.

You’re making rather insulting assumptions about my teachers.

If I’d have wanted to pursue iron palm, my teacher would have bent over backwards to help me achieve what I wanted to achieve, as he has done with a number of other students who remain with him. He runs occasional seminars on iron palm training for senior students and has contacts for the various medicines. But he says its not for everyone, and respects my wishes. Our kwoon has a retention rate that many would envy, even if my teacher gives away <reverb> the deadly secrets of iron palm </reverb>.

I’m quite happy with my striking power, though my sparmates probably less so. My forearms and shins are well enough conditioned from dummy and bag work. As Justin said, may other fighting systems have body conditioning and toughening regimes.

You seem to be implying that any teacher who doesn’t demand his students complete iron palm training is some sort of charlatan.

If I were similarly inclined to making insulting assumptions about your teachers, it would be just as accurate to say that you and your teachers might obsess with iron palm because they’ve never learned to hit or fight properly without it. And maybe you need iron palm bacause your base delivery system can’t cut the mustard, which it seems you’ve more or less argued is the case. And by your logic, all but the dumb ones are walking out the door once they learn the iron palm, so they no longer have to pay the teacher their hard earned money.

I don’t really mean that. But please, keep this discussion out of the twilight zone.