This weekend my son Logan and I attended an iron palm seminar at Ahn’s Taekwondo in Cincinnati, Ohio. The seminar was team taught by Rod Morgan, Shane Belisles and Bill Clark of the Iron Lotus Society.
Each presenter taught qigong exercises, proper hand striking methods on a steel shot filled bag and martial applications of iron palm training.
They provided several dit da jow liniments for us to try (shaolin, ku yu cheong, wong fei hung, etc.) free of charge.
The seminar was informative and taught in a very thorough, yet simple manner that was easy for most participants to understand.
The participants were split into small groups of two or three individuals and each had an opportunity to practice striking the training bag while one of the presenters supervised each group.
By the end of the seminar each participant was able to successfully break one patio block measuring 2" thick, 8" wide and 16" long.
The blocks were construction grade and had been purchased at Lowe’s. They definitely had not been baked, cut, or tampered with in any way.
Rod performed a short power break (about 3" distance) on one block and broke a stack of three blocks without the use of spacers.
Shane and Bill performed breaks on stacks of four blocks with no spacers.
My son and I thoroughly enjoyed participating in the seminar. Rod, Shane and Bill are the real deal and their enthusiasm for what they do is infectious.
You can watch my small video clip of the seminar here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZwzxKVL1xY
[QUOTE=mooyingmantis;1106119]
By the end of the seminar each participant was able to successfully break one patio block measuring 2" thick, 8" wide and 16" long. [/QUOTE]
Which points to IP being more about learned skill and less about toughening the hands.
And, as the demos show, nothing about how one would actually strike in a fight.
Richard,
Thanks for the props sir! We had a lot of fun and we enjoyed learning from you as well. We appreciate the support. We hope to be able to continue the seminars over the sourse of the rest of the year.
-Bill
Faxiapreta - technique will not be the deciding factor when you break stack of four unspaced blocks, no matter how much you practice. The impact is simply too severe for an unconditioned hand. One block is a test of technique, four is not. Your argument is so obvioulsy convoluted its ridiculous. breaking one block does not equate to breaking four with an unconditioned hand. a conditioned hand will handle more impact with less damage, than an unconditioned one. period. The pain is a major stopping point when breaking or hitting. If your hand cant take it, your brain will not let you power through the blocks or target, it will put on the muscular brakes every time. Additionally, I have wrestled for years, and if someone dipped their head for a leg, I would hit them the exact same way I hit the blocks. I can also do it immediately. i do not require a warm up to break, because my hand is hard and conditioned. You would be foolish to assume we do not practice these strikes standing up and in different combat situations anyhow. We can break coconuts(on a string) that are straight in front of us. We apply every aspect of training to combat. your argument here is invalid anyway, since EVERYTHING YOU WILL EVER DO IN LIFE IS A LEARNED SKILL(yes, even body conditioning and breaking) however, there are limits if you do not train appropriately. Meaning conditioning precedes breaking logically. If you do not condition, there is a limit to how much more force you can deliver and receive on the conditioned body part.
[QUOTE=Shima Wara;1106193]Faxiapreta - technique will not be the deciding factor when you break stack of four unspaced blocks, no matter how much you practice. The impact is simply too severe for an unconditioned hand. One block is a test of technique, four is not. Your argument is so obvioulsy convoluted its ridiculous. breaking one block does not equate to breaking four with an unconditioned hand. [/QUOTE]
Breaking is a learned skill, not matter how many blocks.
Here is a physics teacher explaining the physics of breaking.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQSVHL4Qwe0
We can break coconuts(on a string) that are straight in front of us.
Coconuts are far different from skulls. Anyone who compares the two is seriously deluded
Additionally, I have wrestled for years, and if someone dipped their head for a leg, I would hit them the exact same way I hit the blocks.
You might “do” it, but it wouldn’t have any effect. Uninformed people have been claiming to be able to downstrike grappler’s heads for decades. The result is always the same. The person doing the head strike gets dumped on his @ss.
LOL @ having wrestled for years. If you had wrestled for years, you would know that grappling takedowns involve keeping the head up, not dipping it down.
Anyone who claims to have wrestled for years and then talks about dipping the head is proving himself to be a liar and loses any credibility in speaking about wrestling.
[QUOTE=mooyingmantis;1106119]
By the end of the seminar each participant was able to successfully break one patio block measuring 2" thick, 8" wide and 16" long.
The blocks were construction grade and had been purchased at Lowe’s. They definitely had not been baked, cut, or tampered with in any way.
[/QUOTE]
By the generally accepted KFM forum rules defining what makes someone an iron palm master, by doing this you’re now all iron palm masters.
What gets me is, nomatter how many times this happens, nothing ever seems to diminish the ‘reputation’ of those people who claim to be iron palm masters - and sell snake oil and snake oil exercises to achieve the skill… even though all they do is do what beginners can do. And sometimes they’ll even do 4 inches! As if that’s impressive when, even a beginner can do 2 inches.
How long will people keep BSing thyemselves with this stuff?
[QUOTE=faxiapreta;1106195]Breaking is a learned skill, not matter how many blocks.
Here is a physics teacher explaining the physics of breaking.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQSVHL4Qwe0 [/QUOTE]
You are wrong again good ole fraxiapreta ! That was a demonstration of Japanese breaking with Spacers between each piece of wood. This type of breaking involves the weight of your hand times the speed you can swing it = the amount of power to break the first piece of wood, then each coinciding piece of wood breaks because the previous wood hits it and breaks the next piece for you. Not to call you any names but you are a bit ignorant on IP. In Chinese Iron Palm you hit concrete and there are no Spacers between any bricks you hit. The concept still applies the weight X speed, however the idea is not to swing as hard as you can to create more power (weight X Speed), to be able to break the bricks a lighter slap of an open palm. I know you have watched TeetSao vids on breaking… they are all light slaps.
[QUOTE=faxiapreta;1106195]
You might “do” it, but it wouldn’t have any effect. Uninformed people have been claiming to be able to downstrike grappler’s heads for decades. The result is always the same. The person doing the head strike gets dumped on his @ss.
LOL @ having wrestled for years. If you had wrestled for years, you would know that grappling takedowns involve keeping the head up, not dipping it down.
Anyone who claims to have wrestled for years and then talks about dipping the head is proving himself to be a liar and loses any credibility in speaking about wrestling.[/QUOTE]
I have also wreaslted since I was 12…lets see… thats over 35 yers of wrestling and Shuai Chiao experience.
Your are right about keepin your head up. That does not mean that you are not going to whacked when trying to enter. I have hit people when they attempted to enter. When trying to use any type of fighting style, whether it be MMA, BJJ, Iron Palm, Kung Fu, what ever, The person who is better skilled usually wins. Kung Fu fighters that are better skilled will beat unskilled bjj fighters. Skilled MMA fighters will beat unskilled Kung Fu fighter etc etc.
ginosifu
[QUOTE=faxiapreta;1106195]
You might “do” it, but it wouldn’t have any effect. Uninformed people have been claiming to be able to downstrike grappler’s heads for decades. The result is always the same. The person doing the head strike gets dumped on his @ss.
LOL @ having wrestled for years. If you had wrestled for years, you would know that grappling takedowns involve keeping the head up, not dipping it down.
[/QUOTE]
This is a real issue - people who’ve never actually trained with a decent wrestler or judo or BJJ expert etc. Much as I don’t trust personal testimony - after all, what does it mean to impress me if I’m no good? - I had a friend who was an elite judo player - i.e. competed at national and international level. His skills were exceptional - I think far higher level than many people realise when they think of elite judo skill. They might look rough when matched against someone of equal level - but when matched against someone with no grappling skills, it’s a different story - it’s beautiful to see the grace and skill.
Having said that, many times in sparring someone’s gone for the leg takedown on me, and I’ve pushed their head down and negated it. The difference is, those people had zero wrestling/takedown skills, so they did it in the wrongest, clumsiest way that actually invited having the head pressed down. Point being, some things work against novices, but not against people who know what they’re doing.
[QUOTE=ginosifu;1106203]I have hit people when they attempted to enter. [/QUOTE]
Well, good for you - no means no.
[QUOTE=ginosifu;1106203]You are wrong again good ole fraxiapreta ! That was a demonstration of Japanese breaking with Spacers between each piece of wood. This type of breaking involves the weight of your hand times the speed you can swing it = the amount of power to break the first piece of wood, then each coinciding piece of wood breaks because the previous wood hits it and breaks the next piece for you. Not to call you any names but you are a bit ignorant on IP. In Chinese Iron Palm you hit concrete and there are no Spacers between any bricks you hit. The concept still applies the weight X speed, however the idea is not to swing as hard as you can to create more power (weight X Speed), to be able to break the bricks a lighter slap of an open palm. I know you have watched TeetSao vids on breaking… they are all light slaps.[/QUOTE]
Speaking of ignorant…
The laws of physics don’t change.
I think we’ve already confirmed in the other thread that you are ignorant about anatomy and physiology. I doubt you want continue on in this one to show you are also ignorant regarding physics.
Your are right about keepin your head up. That does not mean that you are not going to whacked when trying to enter. I have hit people when they attempted to enter. When trying to use any type of fighting style, whether it be MMA, BJJ, Iron Palm, Kung Fu, what ever, The person who is better skilled usually wins. Kung Fu fighters that are better skilled will beat unskilled bjj fighters. Skilled MMA fighters will beat unskilled Kung Fu fighter etc etc.
Can you hit someone moving in for a takedown and do damage? Of course you can.
Can you do it with the downward motion that those types of breaks are doing? Of course not.
If anything, learning to hit in a method that is different than the more effective ones you will need in fighting is actually counterproductive to learning effective fighting. Doing training that is counterproductive is the biggest reason that so many “traditional” training methods produce so many people that can’t really apply techniques under the pressure of a resisting opponent.
the downward breaks are only one type of strike, and only an idiot would think that that is the only type of strike an iron palm practitioner practices.
IP conditions the whole hand, and the training develops power in many types of strikes.
People who train Kung-Fu, practice many different types of strikes, on many different types of bags, in order to develop power in ALL of their strikes.
This is no different than any other type of fighter.
[QUOTE=TenTigers;1106234]the downward breaks are only one type of strike, and only an idiot would think that that is the only type of strike an iron palm practitioner practices.
IP conditions the whole hand, and the training develops power in many types of strikes.
People who train Kung-Fu, practice many different types of strikes, on many different types of bags, in order to develop power in ALL of their strikes.
This is no different than any other type of fighter.[/QUOTE]
I am speaking specifically to the downward strikes that were shown in the clip. Training these specific strikes are of no use at the best and counterproductive at the worst.
[QUOTE=TenTigers;1106234]
This is no different than any other type of fighter.[/QUOTE]
Most full-contact fighters generally train the same types of strikes they will use in fighting.
[QUOTE=faxiapreta;1106239]I am speaking specifically to the downward strikes that were shown in the clip. Training these specific strikes are of no use at the best and counterproductive at the worst.[/QUOTE]
actually…no. There is an expression in Gung-Fu-'from the large comes the small, from had, comes soft."
Large gross motor skills are learned and then refined to become short,quick strikes, that still retain a great deal of power. This is the essence of short power.
So, learning to generate this force as shown in the clips, is simply the first level of iron palm.
The idea is to learn to generate the power in shorter strikes.
Then, of course to manifest this power in various types of strikes.
I have a question for you.
Have you ever actually trained in Gung-Fu under a qualified teacher for any extended period of time? You seem to be very ignorant of TCMA on the whole.
[QUOTE=faxiapreta;1106240]Most full-contact fighters generally train the same types of strikes they will use in fighting.[/QUOTE]
um…that is basically what I was saying.
Your reading comprehension is somewhat lacking…
FP,
I for one am willing to show you how these strikes will translate to fighting in the ring.
How about you put your money where you mouth is?
We need to get you suited up in gear and I will slap you around a ring and watch how much you can deal with these strikes that according to you are not usable.
But then again we know how net ghosts are complete cowards who never come forward but are “man” enough to badmouth everything and everyone.
How about it?
[QUOTE=TenTigers;1106241]actually…no. There is an expression in Gung-Fu-'from the large comes the small, from had, comes soft."
Large gross motor skills are learned and then refined to become short,quick strikes, that still retain a great deal of power. This is the essence of short power.
So, learning to generate this force as shown in the clips, is simply the first level of iron palm.
The idea is to learn to generate the power in shorter strikes.
Then, of course to manifest this power in various types of strikes.[/QUOTE]
Learning to downward strike in that manner is counterproductive to applying it in a real situation because it is a different motion than what one would use. That is not an effective motion for striking an opponent who is fighting back.
I have a question for you.
Have you ever actually trained in Gung-Fu under a qualified teacher for any extended period of time? You seem to be very ignorant of TCMA on the whole.
My background is irrelevant. I’m not the one making the claims for things there is no evidence for.
[QUOTE=faxiapreta;1106248]Learning to downward strike in that manner is counterproductive to applying it in a real situation because it is a different motion than what one would use. That is not an effective motion for striking an opponent who is fighting back.
My background is irrelevant. I’m not the one making the claims for things there is no evidence for.[/QUOTE]
ok, so you’re just going to repeat yourself.
your background-or lack thereof is relevant, and obvious.
[QUOTE=Dale Dugas;1106246]FP,
I for one am willing to show you how these strikes will translate to fighting in the ring.
How about you put your money where you mouth is?
We need to get you suited up in gear and I will slap you around a ring and watch how much you can deal with these strikes that according to you are not usable.
But then again we know how net ghosts are complete cowards who never come forward but are “man” enough to badmouth everything and everyone.
How about it?[/QUOTE]
Mr. Dugas.
Here’s something much simpler, less time consuming, and will yield much more definite results.
Head down to your local MMA center… one that fields competitive fighters. Simply spar several rounds with a few of their fighters and post the video clips of you using your supposed “internal training” against their fighters.
Demonstrating that you can dominate competitive MMA fighters will go much further in proving the existence of your claims than “slapping around in a ring” some random guy who is giving you cr@p on the internet for being a snake oil charlatan.
How about you put your money where your mouth is?
Of course, we all know that will never happen. You are like all the other “sifus” who make unsubstantiated claims and then make tough guy challenges to “come see me” from behind the safety of their computer screen rarely following through with these challenges, and, when they have finally developed the guts to do so, have pretty much always been schooled for the fakes they are.
You’d rather steal people’s money with your snake oil claims than actually step up into an arena that would force you to actually have to prove your claims.
[QUOTE=faxiapreta;1106232]Speaking of ignorant…
The laws of physics don’t change.
I think we’ve already confirmed in the other thread that you are ignorant about anatomy and physiology. I doubt you want continue on in this one to show you are also ignorant regarding physics.
[/QUOTE]
The above statement does prove anything. There is no panel of peers studies showing me wrong. Breaking wood with Spacers in between each piece with a fist is different that breaking a piece of concrete with a slap.
Are you claiming to be an Expert at brick breaking and are now lecturing me on the dynamics of Breaking? Until you can come up more proof other than opening up mouth and stating “Physics”… you have ground to stand on.
Breaking just using weight X Speed is NOT Iron Palm. But you would not know that because you are someone who is just looking from the outside and saying it does not work…
You keep saying make a clip make a clip … blah blah blah blah. I am almost 50 years old, I have long since retired from the ring. I do not have the time to get back into a decent enough shape to fight competively. Why don’t you go to any local Iron Palm seminar close to you. You’re in Cali right? Shoot up to Sunnyvale and ask Wing Lam Sifu to give you an Iron Palm Demonstartion. Instead of just blasting everyone, ehy don’t you emerse yourself in the art and get a first hand view point… Then after you get your feet wet a bit, then you can blast away at us.
ginosifu
if you all noticed faxiapreata just said he is soe random guy.and by saying his experience and background does not matter,he basically admits he has no background or experience in any art. as usual. case closed.