for those who study and follow the lineage of Jeong Yim, the founder of clf i am listing the official fut san hsk website:
there is no english link so you may have to find a way to translate it.
there are some nice pictures there including a nice one of the newly re-opened studio of tong seks lineage.
it is said jeong yim also taught there.
frank
I always hate it when someone says the sentence “…the founder of clf” because lot of people will post a reply saying he didn’t found it and the argue continues. It dooesn’t matter who founded the style/system, it only matters that its out there to be learned. I personally believe it was Chen Heung due some historical “facts”(?) and because Chen’s family CLF has some inner-family forms that weren’t taught for anyone else than the family members until these days. If some other lineage has these same forms, it could be different (so, does some other non-Chen family related lineage have these forms?)
Anyway, nice site.
jabb only!!!
jabb only!!
jabb, this is between you and me only and i will not let this go too far. i cannot be swayed in my belief that jeong yim is the true founder of what is known as choy lee fut. you mention historical facts, but what are the source of historical facts you refer to? is this from the chan family? or have you truly ever heard from the hung sing family that the hung sing people call chan heung the true founder? are all of your information from the chan family?
is so, then why do you say the fut san hung sing kwoon is lying about our version of our history as it was passed down to us by our elders who are either equal or higher in rankiing as the chan family elders? in fact it is said by the only suviviing student of tam sam that choy lee fut was not called choy lee fut until tams sams generation. it was called fut gar jing jong because master of other styles noticed the choy ga, lee ga, and fut ga techniques within jeong yims hung sing fighting method.
this is a high ranking respected treasure within clf and his reputation is impeccable, so with someone so high on the hierarchy of clf would this elder sacrifice his reputation to spread lies?
for example, loong gee choy could very well be jeong yim who was hiding from the gov. at 12yrs old and changed his name to hide his true identity? if you attempt to tell me this is full of crap, then my responce would be to study deeper into chinas revolutions and understand their mind state. dr sun yat sen often disguised himself as a japanese business man to avoid capture. it the legend of clf chan heung had one outside student, and according to hs legend jeong yim was that outside student. this is only a strong possibility, i am not claiming this but keeping an open mind to this.
so forgive me, if you only quote chan family records then we should not speak. remember the black eye the chan family gave themselves when they attempted to admit the green grass monk really did exist as choy fook?
the one thing you don’t seem to realize that even if choy fook was ggm, jeong yim would still be co-creators of clf since the history say jeong yim learned from the ggm.
every one quotes doc fai wong as if he were some god of clf, and his book as a bible. but doc fai wong himself claims HE discovered ching cho was choy fook, why him and not chan yong fa? if you believe doc fai. then i apologize, but doc fai believes master yuen hai’s other name was yuen fook, but he doesn’t realize that yuen fook was of lau buns/ fong yoke she’s/ tam sams generation, and if we let him tell it we would all be lost. pls forgive me, but i have no faith in doc fai wong at all!
anyways respnd if you like, but this is between you and me and i will not answer anyone else, not even big brother joseph!
frank
forms
forms? sup gee will be different between all 3 branches, all sets will differ from branch to branch. do u have joy yau biu ser? do you have lau buns chueng kuen?
do you have our butterfly knive set?
so just because the chan family has different sets doesn’t make them more original
frank
Frank,
Chan Heung was the founder of CLF and the source of this historic fact did not just came from the Chan family but also been confirmed by the MA historians and experts in mainland China (refer: “The History of Guangdong Martial Arts”). Even the Futsan HSG President himself said so a few years back and he wrote it in black and white in the local newspaper. The new attempt at changing history is only a recent phenomenon driven by commercial considerations.
CLF is not made up of Choy Ga, Li Ga and Fut Ga styles like you said, the name stood for Chan Heung’s teachers, Choy Fook, Li Yau-San and Chan Yuan-Wu and for the Shaolin Temple, the original source of CLFMA.
The only surviving student of Tam Sam, who talked about the original name of CLF being “fut gar jing jong” (authentic Buddhist style), has no idea what he was talking about and he is only a 5th. Generation practitioner, so he is not so high in the CLF hierarchy at all. His claim surfaced a few years ago and was promptly criticised by the rest of the CLF fraternity as being ridiculous and it went underground until now. You are regurgitating the same old story without any fresh evidence.
Loong Gee Choy and Jeong Yim are two different people. Loong retired to Guangsi and you can still visit his old village there, whereas Jeong Yim came from Xinhui in Guangdong province and you can also visit his village not far from King Mui. No one takes what Chan Family says for granted because historians can also check on their claims like everyone else.
Use your logic Frank, if the GGM was Choy Fook, then Jeong Yim could not have studied with him because of his age. Jeong would have been a very young kid when Choy Fook was alive. No one spoke about the GGM as being a real person until the early 1970’s, except in fictional stories as pointed out by DFW and the Five Ancestors that the Futsan HSG now used to link to CLF was also a legend and not a real historic fact.
Don’t start this history debate again, Frank, it is becoming very boring indeed going over the same old arguments again. The history as written up in the Futsan HSG was severely criticised in last year’s history seminar held in Xinhui, I have read some of the transcripts and Futsan has no leg to stand on.
Just between you and I, when you hear what people tell you, try to be objective about it and look for supporting evidence and check their sources before you tell them as though they were facts. Please remember legends, myths and intersting stories don’t make history and what you believe in don’t make it history either.
Joseph
Frank, you crack me up.
You thought you could throw in some “cheap shots” when we weren’t looking eh???
Haha…you’re a funny guy.
I thought you were leaving the forum?
Did you miss us?
Re: forms
Originally posted by yik-wah-tik
[B]forms? sup gee will be different between all 3 branches, all sets will differ from branch to branch. do u have joy yau biu ser? do you have lau buns chueng kuen?
do you have our butterfly knive set?
so just because the chan family has different sets doesn’t make them more original
frank [/B]
Frank,
Let us look at the founder of CLF from a contents point of view.
CLF has its origin in the Shaolin Temple, so the animal forms as passed down by Bak Yuk-Fung are at the core of its teaching, how many of the “Ng Ying Kuen” and "Sup Ying Kuen” do you have?
CLF also has the 18 wooden dummies (Shaolin Temple trade-mark), how many of the dummy forms do you have? Chan Heung has a signature weapon in the Nine Dragons Trident, what do Jeong Yim has?
CLF has a comprehensive internal training curriculum, forms like Sup Ba Lohan Kuen, Mo Git Kuen and Tai Git Kuen and Liang-gong methods like Yum Yeung Po and Ba Kwa Seo, what kind of internal forms do you have? How many of the 9 Ba Kwa form do you have? Do you have a drunken form or a monkey form and the Bak Mo or Fut Jeung?
The Chan family has many manuscripts on the history, philosophy, training methods, TCM formulae and kuen po’s for all the forms, do you have a comprehensive collection of these documents in your lineage if Jeong Yim was the founder? If not, why not?
You mentioned Joy Yeo Kuen, Butterfly Knives and the Cheung Kuen, these are primary level forms, nothing special at all. The truth of the matter is Jeong Yim was a student of Chan Heung and he learned only a fraction of what Chan Heung knew and passed down through his family and other close disciples. If Jeong Yim was indeed the founder or even a co-founder then his lineage would have a more comprehensive list of contents, but that is clearly not the case.
Here is another good reason why Jeong Yim could not have been the founder of CLF, he not only hasn’t got the historical evidence, Jeong doesn’t have the substance to claim to be the founder either and no one from his lineage until recently, stupid enough to claim otherwise.
BTW, if Lau Bun got it all, how come your sifu has to go back to Futsan to learn more? Where do you think the Futsan people learned their forms, from the Buk Sing guys in Guangzhou? 
Here we go again.
Frank, please go away. Every time you show up here you embarrass yourself, your teacher and your school.
What is your problem?!
You mentioned Joy Yeo Kuen, Butterfly Knives and the Cheung Kuen, these are primary level forms, nothing special at all. The truth of the matter is Jeong Yim was a student of Chan Heung and he learned only a fraction of what Chan Heung knew and passed down through his family and other close disciples. If Jeong Yim was indeed the founder or even a co-founder then his lineage would have a more comprehensive list of contents, but that is clearly not the case.
Joseph I agree with most of what you say.
But I do think it is unfair to call Hung Sing CLF an incomplete or fractional system. It is a very effective art on its own and has produced some very competent fighters.
In addition, I seriously doubt that the entire curriculum of Chan Family CLF was as large and comprehensive as when Chan Heung originally developed it…as we’ve discussed before.
CLF has a habit of adopting and incorporating different influences into its curriculum. So I’d venture to guess that some of the training that you mentioned was incorporated after Chan Heung’s passing.
True, Hung Sing lacks the internal forms. However, many Hung Sing masters have struck a balance between internal/external by learning the art of Taiji Chuan, an internal art. I have sought to strike a balance this way also.
So be careful not discourage those Hung Sing practitioners out there and lead them to believe that if they aren’t learning from the Chan Family then they aren’t learning CLF. CLF is a large but it is also small… the number core movements of CLF is rather small (Gwa, Sao, Chaap, etc) even though the number of forms is very large .
Ciao
Fu-Pow,
The point of my argument is that if Frank and his followers think Jeong Yim is the founder of CLF and not Chan Heung, then the contents of their teaching should be more encompassing, more systematic and more “archaic” (tied to history and philosophy), because, in general, a tradition gets water down and simplified as time goes by and not the other way around.
If some of the training methods were incorporated after Chan Heung’s death, why didn’t Jeong Yim evolved the same way? May be because he did not have the necessary “seeds”, theory and philosophy to work with in the first place? Jeong was a great fighter but it takes more than just physical prowess to create a system like CLF.
It is not meant to say that if you don’t learn from the Chan family, then you are not doing CLF. That would be a ridiculous thing to say.
Joseph
so!
you know i only come on here when i feel like kicking up a little dust and i do that pretty well because i always make little *****es like slospeh, slurpent and fool pau who should be ashamed of himself for being a student of lee koon hungs lingeage, respond to me. and boy do you guys scramble to get in your answer, so you can say hey we really got that **** frank mccarthy today, didn’t we? lol!
one message to all of you losers, you cannot prove us wrong. you will never change the minds of the hung sing lineage. you all have big balls to sit behind your computers instead of coming out to meet the people who are making these claims. i wonder why you won’t meet any one who has extended an invitation to meet. instead joseph and fool pau sneak around trying slide on by hoping you won’t get caught by us.
if no one from the hung sing lineage other than d lacey and myself steps forward to support their lineage out of fear of being ridiculed by a few little busters of the weakest branch of choy lee fut (chan clan) then they deserve to be called punks. the buk sing and hung sing branches by far outshines them in so many ways. all you have to claim is that chan heung was the founder…so what boo hoo! our branches are more recognized even if chan heung is the real founder, but you will never change the minds of the hung sing people and all you guys are going to do is get back on this forum and complain and *****.
i am so sorry that you are offended by the claims from the buk sing branch, you must feel pretty threatened to respond so fiercely.
as you can see, you are only spouting the chan family version. so i’ll let you tell it, and you all can follow your glorious leader doc fai wong, who in not recognized as a hung sing student by this branch but as a very short timed student under professor lau bun who was very old and sick at the time he learned, the man died a few years late!?!?!?! he claims he learned the original way of lau bun?! so what was it that jew leong learned from lau bun 20+ years before doc fai? so who would have the original lau bun stuff then? follow the leader!
fool pau, keep your mouth shut, because you come from a lineage where your sigung had the reputation as …never mind, i won’t disrespect him that way, just you! you are just a retarded internet monkey. who follows joseph around because is pretty with his words and only recites from things he has collected.
i can’t wait to see when the world is unloaded with the version of jeong yim being the founder and what you will do about it.? nothing. oh im sorry, you will get on this forum and complain.
you are all some sorry little punk ass bithces with no lives. joseph has no real sifu, and fool pau doesn’t know what lineage he comes from. slurpent IS joseph.
you really need to keep in the shadows because the way you disrespect the elders of the hung sing branch, you all have a price on your head. let me tell you, you all are a little somewhat famous, but in a real bad way. we all are waiting to meet you.
and yes, i know you all will come back with some witty remark, but always remember, you all are living in the shadow of jeong yims legacy. if you weren’t, you wouldn’t be so upset.
simple analogy…say i call your mothers prostitutes…and you get upset about this…my responce is…is your mother really a prostitute?
if not, then why let words bother you?
so get your coats because it will get pretty chilly in jeong yims shadow.
remeber, i am not here to impress you or make you my friend. that will never happen. i have been in this long enough that i will never deal with you, i will deal with your sifu’s. most of you guys are jr. to me anyway. so disrespect me all you like because controversy is the best way to gain recognition because in the end you all know who i am. remember i am the fat hung sing thug!
in the end, i ask myself, who really is fool pau. who really is joseph, who is this ***** slurpent? you know what who cares?!?!?!?!?!?!
but you know me, and thats all i’ve ever wanted. talk all the **** you want, i am in no way shape or form an embarrassment to my sifu. ii personally set out to establish a hung sing kwoon in kansas, and represented the hung sing branch in the competition. i could have performed che kuen and still won the competition, its not the form, its what i did with it stupid fok! you are one of those guys who says “i have 150 sets, how many do you know?” once again i say to you joseph…stupid fok! all i need to learn is che kuen if nothing else and still would kick your arse! biiiaaatttccchh!!! it is because of me that hung sing kwoon is spreading faster and faster because thanks to the likes of you silly bithches, people have wanted to meet me to see if i know what i am talking about. i have even converted some wing chun stylists over to the hung sing clf side.
so remember, my name will always remain in you minds and hearts, regardless if its pity, hatred, humor, or respect, you all know who i am!!!
how great is that? i’m famous now, thanks guys. i’ll send a red envelope soon to thank you.
have fun, try not to think about me too much.
the fat hung sing thug! haha, i’m ****ing famous now!
Try to keep things personal and don’t bring in subtle disses on people’s sifu’s or sigung’s. Lee Koon Hung was my sifu and I don’t like the way you tried to imply something about him. His name will be more well known than any of ours so please leave him out of this rather old topic.
Peace.
end this here
clfnole- i’ll end this here, but i have much respect for the man, and i have always stated the lee koon hung is the only master my sifu has ever complimented.
but it is a well known fact that there was some issues and it is not my place to go into that and if you want to email me we can discuss it, but that is why i backed out and you don’t even know what i was going to say, so why are you so worried.
i was taught well by my sifu, but i will get personal when people get personal and if you in caught in the crossfire, tough luck!
are you going to tell me i was going to spread rumors? are there some issues there? YES! but as you can see, i didn’t mention them!
i am only disappointed for lee koon hung to have a student like fool paw representing him. i personally have nothing bad to say about lkh, i never met him but i have heard stories, and not all of them good. so respect the fact that i didn’t focus on those points!
do you feel me?
f
How do I email you?
with your computer
you know i personally don’t have a problem with you so don’t come at me wrong, please. my email is sifufrank@hotmaill.com
hey, are you joe?
to tell you the truth, yes this is an old subject , and i am working to promote our history, but i attacked no one first. but i will not turn my cheek for them to slap the other side either. i truly don’t care about anyone on this forum, i don’t lose sleep over joseph, slurpen, or the punk ass fool paw.
so what did i imply? how did diss lkh, dont answer here, email me.
f
Frank-
Haha…I’m starting to think that you only know how to write and not how to read.
I openly stated that if you have a perceived personal problem with me then you can take the steps necessary to confront me in the correct way in accordance with the tradition of Mo Duk/Wu De.
I will not hide from you Frank. But I also will not engage in games of grade school slander with you either. That is not the way of kung fu or of life and if you believe it to be then your parents failed you first and your Sifu failed you secondly.
You can continue to try berate me in this feeble manner but it only makes you look like more of monkey.
Your battle is with yourself, not with me. You define by things outside yourself. I define myself.
As to your threats on me, I’d be really ****ing careful with that. You have know idea who I am or who my family is. And, no, I’m not talking about my kung fu family. Let’s just say that they are very well connected. All your forms and knife sets aren’t gonna mean **** if you know what I’m talking about. I’ll just leave it at that.
As to my Sifu and my lineage. You don’t know my Sifu and you didn’t know my SiGung. They are you elders in the Gung Fu fraternity and it is very disrespectful for you to berate them.
I have never said anything bad about your Sifu and by all accounts of my Sifu he is a very skilled fighter and a nice guy. I’m not sure what went wrong with you.
Another thing about my Sifu is that he puts his students first. We are like his children. If you think our relationship is anything less than that then you are sorely mistaken. Don’t underestimate the bond of parent and child.
Hello Frank,
First off I want to say that I support the Hung Sing branch. If things were different, I would have sought them out. I think you guys and Bak Sing are excellent fighters and have a great reputation. I admire many of you all. However, I would like to see more intellegent debates with less personal attacks. I think you have some valid stuff out there. Martial “history” often is chock ful of myths and misconceptions. I doubt most people know the real truth on many topics. Maybe this is one too. People should listen to your facts and judge for themselves what is plausible.
Anyways, I am an outsider to CLF, but I find the style facinating. Like you say, people point to Doc Fai Wong and his books as the bible. I admit I have his book and it is one of the only points of references I have. Perhaps you guys can come up with a book, or atleast an e-book on one of the websites.
My question is when did Doc Fai Wong leave Lau Bun’s school. I know he was there for a while. Without the politics and bashing, why did he leave? Did he just want to expand his choy li fut? Is he not associated with your school any more? Does he still teach any of what he learned at Lau Bun’s school? He lists over a hundred forms in his book and web site. Are any of these from Lau Bun’s school?
My last questions are how can an outsider see more of Lau Bun Choy Li Fut? How related is Bak Sing and Lau Bun’s Choy Li Fut?
Thank you for your time
Tom
Re: so!
Originally posted by yik-wah-tik
simple analogy…say i call your mothers prostitutes…and you get upset about this…my responce is…is your mother really a prostitute?
if not, then why let words bother you?
Good anology, Frank, but why would you called another person’s mother a prostitute in the first place? How would you react if someone say that to you?
Fu-Pow
I think Doc-Fai Wong detailed his story in his column at Inside Kung Fu.
Hung Sing Lineage
There are some main logical problems with what Frank and Lacey said and I asked to clarify with k-no but he hasn’t replied yet with his sifu’s response.
The main difference between this and Hung Gar dispute is that the heads of those lineage’s were in dispute as well. The heads of CLF lineage haven’t gotten publically upset or required a resolution to the dispute meeting like with way Lam Jo’s and other Hung Gar lineage did.