loop holes,//farewell

much of the clf history remains a mystery. bits and pieces at best are all we have. in attempting to piece together the puzzle, there remains pieces missing in both the chan and hung sing records.

the fut san hung sing kwoon is the birthplace to hung sing clf and is recognized as such by the fut san gov’mnt. no mention of chan heung is present. the people of fut san may have forgotten much of our history which was always passed down word of mouth, and may have mixed up some dates, but our story has always been the same for generations. and some dates are questionable.

yet the chan family have more loop holes in their story then we do. for example, chan heung going to singapore with jeong yim to spread clf. yet according to the singapore hs no clf has ever flourished in singapore before kwan mun keng. and why did chan heung take jeong yim the young boy instead of his other senior students or his own sons?

if chan heung called his school hung sing 1st, the explain why did his son koon pak use a hung sing similar to that of his fathers student than that of his father? it is said it was jeong yim that taught chan koon pak and not chan heung. so it makes sense that koon pak glorify jeong yim as his sifu.

clf established in 1836 yet an image of chan heungs likeness appears only 134 years later. master dave lacey has proven this point on his website beyond the shadow of a doubt. another is chan heung kicking rocks into the air and crushing them into pieces as the hit the ground, how come none of the chan family members possess this skill today? and what about that tiger chan heung killed? was it with his bare hands, what technique did he use? was chan heung injured in this battle with the tiger, i am sure that was a fierce tiger.

another is jeong yim being sent to hong kong to open a school yet their is no record of him but his students who opened the schools such as yuen hai.

for many years the chan clan explicitly stated that there was no ching cho ever mentioned but now he does?! oh, he is now choy fook the scar headed monk, but there has never been any mention of ching cho having a scarred head. a piece of information not easily left out in ching cho’s discription.

according to the fut san gov’mnt the hsk officially organized in 1851-not opened in 1851-organized-during the tai ping rebellion and m entions jeong yim as the founder of the fut san hsk.
it is well documented that the fut san hsk was famous and the largest clf school in all of guandong with over 10,000 students. no mention ever of chan heung.

this controversy has gone far enough. it is safe to say that 99% of you will maintain your anonymity at all costs, resulting in your continued safety. even i believe it is now better to return to our training.

what matters most in the end is that clf is clf. and for the modern day clf fighter we have 3 famous branches to learn from. and in the future someone else will want to know their heritage and will trace their roots. word of mouth was the main way to pass on the history.yet it is crucial that we take into account the eyewitness accounts of how it was in that era.without the personal first hand knowledge the history is left in the hands of individuals more capable of recording the history tipping the scales in their own favor in their quest to control power.

one must take into account the living conditons of when clf first flourished. clf was no doubt very connected to the revolutionary movement. and anyone connected to the movement and were caught or even suspected met with death whether involved or not.

the chan family branch seemed to attract the well educated while fut san contained fierce freedom fighters who could not read or even write their own name. the literate of the chan family wrote the history of the chan family while our history was always spoken to us. yet the fut san freedom fighters could not afford to possess documents linking them to the revolution or the would be beheaded.

it is completely wrong for anyone not to allow their story to be told out of fear of losing thier place in the hierarchy. for some it may make people wonder why the hung sing branches history is being suppressed and disputed. what is their to hide?

it is my intent to tell the history as we have had it passed down to us. in the family of clf there is no “who has the power” because it was never organized as such. we are only a handful people who argue over the pettiness of historical data. if this is what you want, then keep it here on the forum and amongst yourselves.

i’m outta here,

frank mccarthy
jew, hung loong
usa/ fut san hung sing kwoon
yet, we can argue over the loop holes for generations to come, but why?

Frank,

First off, let me congratulate you on a fine piece of posting. By not being personal and not saying Chan Heung was not the founder of CLF, you gave us room to discuss the “loop holes” of history (if we want to) and peace to tell each other’s story in a reasonable manner.

I agree with you, there is no one “who has the power” and it is only a handful of unimportant people doing all the talking here. However, the main sticking point in the past was not the “loop holes” but who was the real founder of CLF.

By agreeing on one common heritage (Chan Heung was the founder, he taught Jeung Yim who later founded Futsan Hung Sing, just as Tarm Sarm later still founded Buck Sing), no one branch is being suppressed and we all have a proper place in history.

With this in mind, let us all return to our training.

JosephX

Re: loop holes,//farewell

Originally posted by yik-wah-tik
The fut san hung sing kwoon is the birthplace to hung sing clf and is recognized as such by the fut san gov’mnt. no mention of chan heung is present. the people of fut san may have forgotten much of our history which was always passed down word of mouth, and may have mixed up some dates, but our story has always been the same for generations. and some dates are questionable.

Frank,

Pardon me, but I find it hard to let this one slip by.

Until the Commemorative Journal Published in 2001 to mark the 150 Anniversary of the Futsan Hung Sing Gwoon, Chan Heung was not only mentioned by Futsan but he has always been recognized as Jeong Yim’s teacher and the sole founder of CLF.

In the 23rd. March 1997 issue of Guangzhou RenminYibao (Guangzhou Peoples Daily), the present day Director of the Futsan Hung Sing Gwoon, Mr Deng Guangmin (he has a photo appeared on page 56, top left hand corner of the said journal) wrote an article entitled “The Largest Martial Arts School in China” and in it Mr. Deng said it very clearly Jeung Yim was not the first person to set up the Futsan school. Some how, they decided to change their story 4 years later.

I have translated the relevant part of the article for your interest; you can ring up Futsan and speak to Mr. Deng to see if this is true.

“Futsan Hung Sing Gwoon was established in 1851, originally it was called Choy Lay Fut Gwoon. Jeong Yim, a disciple of Chan Heung the founder of Choy Lay Fut, took over as the Principal (Gwoon Jeung) in 1875 and changed its name to Hung Sing (Glorious Victory) Gwoon”

Contrary to what you said, the history of Futsan Hung Sing Gwoon is well documented, not just passed down by word of mouth and their story is not always the same as you maintained.

On page 31 of the above mentioned journal, it said Tang Dongchen, one of Chan Sheng’s disciples, wrote 2 chapters on the history of Hung Sing Gwoon in 1923. It even has a photo of the hand written manuscript on the same page.

In the reference section of the “Guangdong Wushu Shi” book the researchers gave 2 written source for Futsan Hung Sing Gwoon, one was called “The History of Hung Sing Gwoon and CLF Kuen” written by Wu Jinxiang and the other was called “The Rise and Fall of Futsan Hung Sing Gwoon” written by Chou Yitian.

All these 3 written source quoted acknowledged Chan Heung was the founder and he taught Jeong Yim. It is only in the 2001 Anniversary Journal that the present day Futsan Hung Sing Gwoon changed their tune to say Chan Heung and Jeong Yim co-founded CLF with Jeong Yim teaching Chan Heung what he has learned from Ching Cho!

If you are interested, I can give you my two cents worth on the other “loop holes” as well. There are simple explanations to them if you want to know. May be you prefer to find them out yourself.

JosephX

Frank is right about there being to many holes, but they are in all versions!!!

The one thing I could not let go is how Frank claims the hung sing branch passed down the history by word of mouth and that the Clan clan wrote down their side of history. I mean how acurate can it be if it was passed down by word of mouth?! I bet it changed a hundred times!!! This is proof in China now, how many different dialects does China have? I hear they are in the hundreds. Why? Because many could not read or write the launguage, making a written record of it to reference, so over time it changes. History is full of examples of people leaving, not taking any written records and after many years their lanuage changes completely. So how can you trust a history that has been passed down by word of mouth?

I know we all have played the game where you whisper one thing is someones ear, they pass it to someone else, etc. By the time it is done the original phrase is totally different.

I just don’t know.

I don’t know either.

What do you do when someone insisted that oral transmission is more accurate than written evidence?

It is like the guy who started the Chinese whisper wrote down his words, but the chap 6 or 7 down the chain insisted on what he heard is more correct than what was written down.

What do you do?

wait~

hold up.

if you do the research, the hung sing branch and buk sing branches are the only ones mentioned to truly be involved in the revolution. as to josephs comment about documented as opposed to verbal. well anything written by mans hand can and will be changed by anyone wishing to control power. for example, in the holy bible, it said that there was to be only one interpretation of the bible, but sure enough there are many different versions of the bible. once again anything written by mans hand can and will be changed.

as to 007’s comment it wasn’t until chan heungs grandson chan yiu chi documented their history and kept it within their family because if its contents were known like they are now…there would be more controversy. lun chee is “THE” oldest living 4th generation survivor of that time and he says that the chans version is very incorrect. how can you dispute someone who actually lived to see clf flourish. before you discount his experience, interview him before judging him.

for those who care to understand what it was like to be a southern chinese during the 1800’s to the mid 1950’s there are books such as the hung society that will describe in great detail what it was like to live during that time. to carry or possess any type of information which may connect you to the revolution meant certain death!!! even dr sun yat sen would never carry revolutionary documents out of fear of death.

most of the history of clf was written by chan family members and hung sing had never documented their history. if you look into it a little deeper you may find the answers i have.

see, even wing chun calls jeong yim one of the great fighters of southern china. and it is well known that hung sing clf was famous and mau tse tung even had hung sing body guards.
and i do agree there are too many loop holes for anyone to claim victory.

the hung sing kwoon in fut san had been opened and closed since the early 1840’s for its involvement in the movement. even master yuen hai who was there long before chan ngau sing escaped fut san and fled to hong kong and opened a hung sing kwoon and later returned to canton when things cooled down.

i want to say this, question everything you read. just because it is written down doesn’t mean its true. look at doc fai wongs claim that ching cho didn’t exist, but now he does?! i wonder how he feels now since this new revelation. but not everything is so black and white you must take into consideration the whole story before you believe only 1/25 of it.

it is up to you guys to believe what you want but until i started my little quest on the history, our history was always passed down word of mouth and i emailed many hung sing schools we have never met before and compared notes, but every single school of hung sing believe as we believe.

there’s too many bitter people on here afraid to lose the power or throne, so that why i try to stay away from here. but i am still watching.

frank

Frank,

No one is questioning the great contributions made by Futsan Hung Sing Gwoon to the development of CLF and their heroic role in Chinese history. No one is questioning Jeong Yim being a great fighter and he was an inspiring teacher to a great branch of CLF.

I am only questioning your claim that Futsan Hung Sing Gwoon’s latest version of history is correct and Lun Chee’s claim that the Chan version was incorrect, namely:

  1. Chan Heung and Jeong Yim co-founded CLF, with Jeong Yim teaching Chan Heung what he has learned from Ching Cho.

  2. Jeong Yim was the first to open the Futsan Hung Sing Gwoon.

I am asking you for some dates and some physical evidence to support your claim, not just what some elders have said. Sun Yatsen was a revolutionary yet we know a lot about him and he has left a lot of documents behind, why is there nothing on Ching Cho?

It is because Ching Cho did not existed as a separate individual, he was the same person as Choy Fook and Choy Fook could not have taught Jeong Yim because he was too young. So Jeong Yim could have only learned from Chan Heung. Lack of evidence, timing and procol made it unlikely that they co-founded CLF.

Written evidence as early as 1923 showed Jeong Yim was not the first to teach in Futsan, yet you choose to believe what some elders said now over the written evidence of much earlier time. What can I say?

You have every right to claim what you want to claim, I am only asking you for evidence to support your claims. If you cannot, then I could only assume that your that claims are not true.

All these debates are not about loosing power or the throne, it is about historical truth. One cannot make history true just because one believes in a particular version of history and CLF history is not the same as the Bible.

Chan Heung being the founder is not going to make my Kung Fu any better and if I lose this debate it is not going to make me fall off my throne, since I am not on it any way.

No one is feeling bitter here and it is nice talking to you again in a civilized manner.

However, we have been going around and around in circles for full 12 months now, it seems we are not getting through to each other, so why don’t we stop here and start the new year differently.

Have a Happy New Year!!!

JosephX :smiley:

Frank:
You make a good point about the Chan family not writing down history until the grandson did. And I agree with you on people changing history to favor themselves. Imagine if Hilter won world war 2!! History would be very different, and even Germany’s history of what happend during and after World War 1 is different from ours. I have a friend that teaches US history at a college in Kentucy and he says History is a told as it is seen in the writers eyes, and we all see the world in a different view.

Honestly, I am a Hung Sing practioner. When I was younger I trained under a student of Doc Fai Wong and when I became more education (and other reasons) I changed to a different sifu that is from the Hung Sing branch. But even with my experiences I do not bad mouth Doc Fai Wong because that is not right. We need to be unified as a CLF family. We know of your sifu and my sifu has great respect for him, but we also have great respect for Chan Yon Fa. CLF is such a great system because there is so much to learn. I bet I could learn a lot from you, and your Sifu. Chan Yon Fa has a lot to offer and I bet we can learn a lot from him. We can learn a lot from Sifu Lacey, as you could learn a lot from my sifu. We could all bennifit from each other and make out CLF grow. I think we need to drop this history stuff because all sides have so many loop holes and respect both Chan Hueng and Jeong Yim and work on helping each other improve our CLF.

007…cool

well put 007. i totally agree, it is only when someone suppresses anothers history to protect the integrity of their own is where we have problems. if the choy lee fut family can agree to one version we would all benefit from every master as long as it is all clf, right?
you can email me at sifufrank@hotmail.com and we can talk.

i love your statement about writers seeing history as they see it. not as simple as it should be. i guess nothing is ever so simple.

see, joseph wants evidence from a period when having documents connecting you to the revolution can cost you your head. the truth about hung sing being involved in revolutions suchs as the opium war, tai ping, red turbans, and etc is evident, and when the hung sing kwoon was closed a number of times many of the masters fled to various parts of the world taking much of the info with them-which would explain why masters in such places as singapore, malaysia, hong kong etc all have had the history passed down to them in the fut san hung sing branch because the past masters would never write anything on the history in order to escape prosecution and death. Professor lau bun was a student of master yuen hai-a direct disciple of jeong yim- and professor lau passed the history down as it was passed on to him. he passed it down to jew leong who passed it on to my sifu. that is how the history was passed down. no one ever thought we had to write the history because we never thought anyone would openly dispute it. so, evidence, what evidence? what evidence is there to prove chan heung created choy lee fut by himself? what evidence? his grandsons writings?

any type of evidence found in connection to the fut san hung sing kwoon’s actual existance is thought of as rare. i mean we have the actual insense burner of the original fut san hung sing kwoon. in a newspaper article from china they stated that they have found 3 original hung sing kwoons, over 150 years later.
they have always been there, so isn’t this evidence? but why didn’t they find this out until 150 years later? so to the evidence of how clf was created will never honestly and truly be known, but eye witness accounts during that period are crucial in considering and sifting out the information. we must meet on a common ground with no one in control. unfortunately in the world of gung fu…no one likes to be controlled so we are back to square one.

Frank, you refuse to see what’s right in front of you! What about the independant history book that Joseph found and the things it said? What about his answers to the questions that were asked?

Whenever anything is brought out to be discussed you just go on about how the truth will never be known. :rolleyes:

Frank-

I thought you were leaving? What happened? We’re just too fascinating I guess…lol

You see, Frank, whatever you believe or I believe or what Joseph believes is really irrelevant to our kung fu. Kung fu is about development of the individual to the highest level possible, mentally, physically and spiritually. And that is a personal thing, beyond politics and affiliations and internet nonsense.

And I agree with you we may never know what happened over there in King Mui or Futsan when CLF was created. It was a long foggy time ago when as you said history was not cleanly recorded. In other words, they didn’t have www.cnn.com.

But I think that there is one history that has been posited on this forum that can satisfy everyone. It is the history that the majority of the participants here believe to be the true history. Check out my poll if you missed it.

It is the history that says Chan Heung is the founder. Jeong Yim is the famed disciple of Chan Heung and the founder of the Hung Sing branch. And Tam Sarm is the founder of the Baksing branch.

In this version no one’s toes get stepped on even if it is not %100 historically accurate. But as you said we will never know the real story, so why not go with the one that keeps everyone getting along?

Imagine a big tree. At the bottom of the trunk are thick roots that reach back into the murky history of military arts in China. As you travel up the trunk you find Chan Heung, where these roots converge. From Chan Heung upwards grow three thick branches, one is Hung Sing, the other Bak Sing and the other Chan Family CLF. At the tips of the branches are the leaves blowing in the wind. We modern day practitioners are the leaves. One day, like our predecessors we will wither and die and fall off the tree but in the mean time we help the tree grow. We must keep in mind that we all share the same root and same responsiblity to help the tree grow.

We all have the same goal , why not get along and help each other get there?

Fu-Pow,
That is poetry, Amen!

Frank,
How About it?

Just an observation…

Originally posted by Fu-Pow

But I think that there is one history that has been posited on this forum that can satisfy everyone. It is the history that the
majority of the participants here[/b] believe to be the true history. Check out my poll if you missed it.

…so why not go with the one that keeps everyone getting along?
[/B]

Even if we assume that a majoritarian decision regarding the popularity of one history over another is what is needed for CLF to flourish, your argument is flawed:

A) “the majority of the participants here” is in no way representative of the majority of CLF practitioners (not to mention “everyone” as you seem to suggest).

Unless you can cite a poll of all CLF practitioners, favouring the Chan family history, the Frank’s version of CLF history remains equally valid, and Frank can just as easily pose the same question to you.

[

A) “the majority of the participants here” is in no way representative of the majority of CLF practitioners (not to mention “everyone” as you seem to suggest).

Where did I suggest that? Here’s what I wrote:

It is the history that the majority of the participants here believe to be the true history.

And in another thread I wrote:

The purpose of this poll was demonstrate to bean curd that the generally accepted view is that Chan Heung was the founder of Choy Lay Fut.

Now, I don’t suppose to know WHY this is the generally accepted view. In fact, it could be the completely wrong view for all we know. Nor do I claim that this poll is in anyway concrete data.

But in this limited sample of kung fu players on this forum it does appear to be the most accepted history.

If we extrapolated this data out to the CLF community as a whole(which is really kind of silly) then it would appear that the Jeong Yim/Chan Heung co-founder theory is a minority viewpoint.

So please tell me how I suggest that my one poll represents the CLF community as a whole? I’ve quite obviously stated that it doesn’t.

However, what it does represent is the views of the people that participate in this forum. A majority of THOSE people believe that history which I outlined above.

So unfortunately for people like Frank they are essentially walking into a “den of wolves” by posting a contrarian opinion.

He’d have about as much luck going over to clfma.com and posting the same stuff.

That’s life.

:frowning:

A new year and an old argument
“History teaches us that men and nations behave wisely once they have exhausted all other alternatives”- Abba Eban

Wise words from Abba Eban but unfortunately it takes a lot of time, energy, pain and human lives to exhaust all the alternatives.

It took an A bomb and millions of lives to stop WWII and if man’s irrationality can deny the Holocaust, Evolution and the earth being round, it can easily deny Chan Heung.

Dave Lacey has no idea the monster he let loose when he preached segregation of CLF, we will pay for his indiscretion for a long time to come. The CLF family will never be the same and when we fight each other we will be like goats taken to the slaughterhouse. No one will win.

A gloomy thought for a New Year of the Goat, but Anton’s posting now (argue for argument sake) and Hiram’s “Jeung Mun” post earlier (a deliberate public attempt to discredit Chen Yong-Fa) doesn’t give us much hope for a peaceful future.

Sadly, that’s life too. We’ll never learn.

Where has there been a case for the seggragation on clf been made on Sifu Lacey’s web site?

This argument started after yik wah tic and Sifu Lacey reprinted the history of the Futsan Hung Sing Gwoon as it has been told word of mouth since it was founded in 1839. Afterwards some CLF politicians on this forum said that this history was BS and that the Green Grass Monk did not exist. A position that was then taken 180 degrees around when same politicians said ggm does exist and now is the teacher of Chan Hueng.

The stink of your politics makes me ill please practice diplomacy instead

“Politicians are just like diapers. They need to be changed often–and for the same reason.” (unknown)

“on, ditty, on, ditty, on…the sh1t don’t stop until the break of dawn.”

Give it a rest fellas…for God’s sake. It’s like someone running their fingernails on blackboard…FOR A YEAR STRAIGHT!!!

Let’s make beautiful music instead of keep on blowin’ on the same sour note.

It’s a new year…a new day…lifes too short to waste it away arguing with ghosts in front of the computer screen.

Carpe diem my friends.

What if today was your last day?

…would you waste it away on such idle chit chat.

I concur; perhaps my last post was not clear. May be this will help-
One more quote for the day
• “A diplomat is a man who thinks twice before he says nothing” … Fredk. Sawyer
That said I have nothing else to offer, and now back to ******* and his virtual sow chui

Does ******* Diaz have a stalker here why cant you say ******* on this forum?
Camer0n is that pc?