Green Grass Monk

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Southern Chinese Kung Fu
1

People try to doctor history for various reasons. In MA it is usually about lineage. Like who is the oldest and who is the best and the most authentic. They did it to Taijiquan and now they try to do it to CLF. Beware of “authorised historians” telling you “facts” without proofs.

Green Grass Monk is a fictional character made up to put Cheung Ah Yim on the map. It was first mentioned in the 60s, and it is only now, in the last couple of years, that the claim that Cheung Ah Yim and Chan Heung both invented CLF came to surface.

The whole thing remained me of someone wanting to push his way in a line. First he pretends he has a friend there, then he starts you talk, then he puts one foot in, then the other and then voila, he is in the line and no one will be game enough to complain or to to push him back.

Fortunately, we can see them coming and they have no proof to back up their claims. So time will tell the truth from the falsehood.

Mark my words.

Joseph

2

Green Grass Monk!

Mr. Joseph,
In light of your statement, may I ask if you know the futsan branch, and if not do you understand the differences between the Chan Clan and of Cheung Hung Sing? There is a major difference! Is it not possible that Cheung Hung Sing learn from someone else besides Chan Heung? I remember reading Doc Fai Wongs book Choy Li Fut, and he states there is no Bak Pai mountains, and there is! Where the monks there are heavily involved in agriculture for whatever reasons, and I asure you that here in the san francisco bay area we have a t.v. show called “Treasures of China” and this mountain was feautured showing the monks working in the fields. Now I don’t dispute Cheung Yim learning from Chan Heung but if you’ve ever seen Cheung Yim Branch of Choy Lee fut you will have to admit that the whole structure of skills, use of force etc, is different than the Chan Clan, this is not to say one is greater than the other for it is the indiviual and not the style. As far as the Green Grass Monk is concerned why not? And if not Cheung Hung sing must have been quite brilliant to come up with a totally new curriculum which is as day from night to the Chan Clan. In closing i say, Cheung Hung Sing reputation as a fighter and teacher is well known, and those that follow his methods has truly adopted his benevolent spirit. With so much that differs, I can only come to the conclusion that he was either a kung fu genius or someone has shown him different skills to enhance his own.

3

i agree joe,well said :slight_smile:

4

There is no one alive who can prove or disprove the existence of the Green Grass Monk. Believe it if you want and if you don’t fine.

But just because the Chan Family says there is no Green Grass Monk doesn’t make it so. Being related to Chan Hueng doesn’t mean you know everything there is to know about CLF.

To this day I find it real strange that there branch has, what is it 198 forms including a 4-man weapon set. Chan Hueng must have had a lot of free time to create so many sets. I though they were training freedom fighters to overthrow the Ching government.

Just think about it. I am not saying one side is right or one side is wrong rather that the truth generally lies somewhere in the middle.

Peace.

5

okie dokie

once again i see that the chan family continues to try and discredit the history of choy lee fut as the hung sing (jeong hung sing) branch sees it.

while in fut san, i have learned a few things. and i have come to a few new conclusions.

  1. i still believe that chan yiu chi changed chan heungs birthday by 10 years. i spoke with sifu leong of the fut san hung sing kwoon about this and he said yes the birthday was changed by 10 years. this i believe.

2)the chan family members on this forum have claimed that choy lee fut (3 styles-choy ga-lee-ga and fut ga) has not fut ga in it. that the fut is a representation of the shaolin roots. but according to some elders, i have heard that choy lee fut may have already been created thru chan heung, but jeong yim did learn from monk ng ging-whose alias was the green grass monk.this monk was a master of fut gar, and after jeong hung sing left the green grass monk, he put the fut into choy lee fut.
many of the shaolin monks of those days took on alias’s to hide their true identity because the gov’mnt would kill any linked to the revolution.
to say that he doesn’t exist is just a cop out and a sign of insecurity.

the one thing i realized in fut san is that during our stage performance, a group of fut gar stylists from china performed, and after watching them, reality slapped my face repeatedly. i have never seen real fut gar before, but after watching them, i am even more convinced that the fut in choy lee fut is fut gar-passed down by monk ching cho or aka monk ng ging.

it is said that chan heung killed a tiger with his bare hands. so who were the witnesses, where are the scars he has from being mauled? where is this tiger skin now? where did he kill this tiger? truth of myth?

chan heung was said to have smashed rocks into powder with his kicks. then why has this skill not been passed on to the direct descendants? that would be an amazing feat!

see, these things that chan heung supposedly did are also a little far fetched, but no one from the hung sing or buk sing try and discredit openly such as does the chan family. we let you talk and talk. that is where we went wrong. because the more the chan family talked, the stories got greater and greater.

now that the hung sing people step forward, the chan family try to shout the loudest about their history, but will not allow us to have ours. if the story we have is wrong, then why does it bother them so much?

are they afraid the truth will come out?

the hung sing family beginning in fut san and spreading outwards is re-growing and coming back stronger that ever. there are hung sing branches all over fut san even in the jr.high schools.

our story will be told, and will be remembered. as it should be.

if the chan family has all the answers, then prove monk ching cho didn’t exist-whose other name is monk ng ging. fut gar is all over choy lee fut, at least hung sing choy lee fut under jeong yim. and once again our story will be told.

sorry guys, we can’t be held down.

hung sing choy lee fut!

fran :wink:

“graceful staff flies above like a dragon wiggling it’s tail-strong fist releases out like a tiger raising its head”

6

the chan family had always had very literate people in the lineage. and the hung sing people were just very hardcore fighters. the chan family literati had published story after story and still even withtin their own lineage their stories conflict.

as joseph likes to attack me as the authorized historian, i will state i am the historian of the our specific branch, meaning i am the only one who put in so much hard work at uncovering our history, earning me the title.

people such as joseph who is so closed minded, cannot see the historical development of choy lee fut by all 3 branches. he still believes that if it were not for chan heung there would be no choy lee fut. but if it weren’t for jeong hung sing and master tam sam choy lee fut would not have spread as much as it had.

i have never read anywhere or heard anything about chan heung being a great fighter, but jeong hung sing is a famous southern china fighter and also was master tam sam whose fights were all well known. both masters are of the hung sing lineage, and not chan heung.

choy lee fut is not all about chan heung but rather is a compilation of jeong hung sing and master tam sam and their developments within spreading, and advancing choy lee fut to where it is today.

the hung sing family or the buk sing family has never made any outrageous claims, but the chan family originally taught 150 original sets, now it is at 200, so a lost manual must have been found that has completed choy lee fut somewhere?!

i guess this debate will never end, because of those who will not let others share the limelight.
and for those who ride the coattails of bloodline, just because i am related to abraham lincoln does not automatically make me presidential material. and chan yong fa being in the bloodline to chan heung does not make him the king of the choy lee fut world, or an invincible martial artist.

in order to be the jerng mun yen of all choy lee fut one must be able to defeat clf fighters to earn this title. to claim to be so of all choy lee fut puts a bullseye right dead center of his chest and is open target for any who choose to challenge his claims.

chan family sifu doc fai wong has also experienced this because of his claims of being the highest ranking choy lee fut master in the u.s..

the hung sing story is being told, the chan family is powerless to stop it from being told. call us fools all you like, but everywhere you look you will be finding jeong yim’s hung sing branch popping up all over telling the same story of jeong yim and of the green grass monk.

fran :wink:

“graceful staff flies above like a dragon wiggling it’s tail-strong fist releases out like a tiger raising its head”

7

y-w-t you smell of sh!t :smiley: :smiley: :smiley: your clf is full of it thats why.clf is a way to make money,and i’m telling you it’s cr@p.no spirit,no body,and definatly no mindfull experiences.if clf goes against wing chun,pak mei,hung gar etc it would loose every time,not just in fighting but everything.because it was devised by cantonese ppl and some manchu taught it to them.
how about that… :smiley: :smiley: :smiley: :smiley: :smiley: :smiley: :smiley: :smiley: :smiley:

another thing you smell of alot of sh!t not just a little :smiley: :smiley: :smiley: :smiley: :smiley: :smiley: :smiley: :smiley: :smiley:

8

sui fuw-si fut gwai

thanks for your input. i am enlightened as always.

but remember, it is not the style, but the practitioner that makes the style work for him, whether it is wing chun,karate,tae kwon do, or tai chi, if i am a good fighter i will make anything work for me. regardless of what style.

maybe you need god in your life, pray a little bit, and maybe i will pray for you too. i feel for you brother. your anger spills over like a cup full of water. i pray you find happiness in your style, and i pray you don’t ever get your ass whipped by a clf figther. i pray you never meet any of my classmates, or myself, because i will put up my clf to what ever you learn anyday.

god bless yo :smiley: :smiley: :smiley:

“graceful staff flies above like a dragon wiggling it’s tail-strong fist releases out like a tiger raising its head”

9

contradiction upon cotradiction.i told you smell :smiley: :smiley: :smiley: :smiley: :smiley: :smiley: :smiley: :smiley: :smiley:

10

Frank

First let me say that I am not a representative of the Chen Family, and I do not speak on their behalf. I am merely a guy who has done CLF most of my life. I care for CLF and I am not trying to put anyone down. I am merely trying to see history in a scholarly way.

Prior to the communist take-over, CLF was unified under the guidance of Chan Heung’s disciples and descendants. Since its spread overseas after 1949, it has become fragmented to the point where there are people claiming that there are now 2 originators instead of one.

Cheung Ah Yim was a student of Chan Heung and he may have learned from someone else. He was a great fighter and he has made a great contribution to the development and the spread of CLF and no one denies that (not least the Chen family). But it’s quite a different matter to say that he co-founded CLF! If you are going to say that, you need to back up your claims with facts. What forms did Cheung Ah Yim and Chan Heung put together? In what way did Cheung co-found CLF? Is it in the development of the techniques? Or in the theoretical framework of the system? How different is Cheung Ah Yim to Chan Heung?

If you are to claim that there is a Green Grass Monk, where is the documented evidence of this guy? You cannot just hide him behind the excuse that the Ching government would kill any rebels who mentioned their names! The Green Grass Monk, if he ever existed, must have had other students other than Cheung Ah Yim, where are they now? How does their Kung Fu compare to CLF? How did the Green Grass Monk contributed to the development of CLF? These are some of the questions you need to answer if you are going to make these outrageous claims.

If you read the Chen Family history they say the character ‘Fut’ not only stands for the Shaolin Temple, but also for Chan Yuen Wu, who studied Fut Gar. The Fut Gar connection did not come from the Green Grass Monk but from Chan Heung’s uncle.

As I have said many times before, if you make a claim that the Green Grass Monk exists, then it is your job to prove his existence, If you claimed that Cheung Ah Yim co-found CLF then it is your job to prove how he did it, not someone else’s job to disprove you. If you carry on like this, I can make up many characters and events and you will have a full time job to disprove me.

As for Chan Heung killing a tiger, if you go to the King Mui Village (why don’t you join Chen Yong-Fa’s Return to the Origin Tour?), there is an old man in his 80s who can tell you that there was a tiger skin in the Chen Family Ancestral Hall until the Cultural Revolution. He can tell you the story much better than I can.

Also, Chan Heung may be able to crush rocks into powder with his bare hands (not his kick), why would you want to learn this trick? You don’t need to be a Chen Family descendant to learn that, have you not seen the Hard Qigong demonstrations where it’s commonplace to smash rocks these days?

Frank, I know you love CLF, so do I. But our love for the art should not blind us to reality. I have studied your branch of the art from my father who was a student of Tong Shak. He, like my father, decided that the Chen Family has further material to offer in the understanding of CLF and went on to study with Chen Yiu-Chi. You should try to look into what the Chen Family do, instead of holding onto your belief that the American Hung Sing Branch is the best and the greatest. Believe me, we have much to learn in our lifetime. I am not afraid of the truth. If you claim to have the truth, please show us.

Chan Heung in his life time left 3 main lines of transmission, one through his son, Koon Pak, one through his No.1 disciple, Loong Ji-Choi and one through Cheung Ah Yim. Later on Tarm Sarm took the name of Buck Sing, so there are in fact not three but four major branches of CLF: Great Sage Hung Sing (Chen), Heroic Victory Hung Sing (Loong), Great Victory Hung Sing (Cheung) and Buck Sing (Tarm) and Chan Heung is the root to all these four branches.
Frank, we all belong to the same ‘tree’, so long live Choy Lee Fut, not just any separate branch of Choy Lee Fut! Being a good fighter or being a bully doesn’t mean you can change history.

Joseph

11

Sifu Troy

Chan Heung did not come up with the complete system on his own in his lifetime. It was developed through his son and his grand-son, Koon Pak and Yui Chi.

No one is disputing Cheung Ah Yim was a great teacher and a great fighter, but he died when he was only 33 (Frank said this), so his art did not have much time to develop, although he was a kung fu genius. Hence the stylistic variations between him and the other 3 branches.

When people claimed that he has studied with another teacher other than Chan Heung, I have no problem with that, but when Frank went further and claimed that Cheung co-found CLF with Chan Heung then I do want to take him to task because it is simply not true. If it is the case, why was it not told before while Chan Heung was alive?

I may be old fashion, but I believe we should respect history and respect our lineage and our art. If you are going to change history do it with a bit of thought and research, not through a bullying tactic. You can say it over and over again and yell at the top of your voice, but without facts to back up his claim, Frank is pushing **** upstream.

Joseph

12

CLFNoble

History is not about whether you believe it or not. History is based on facts. Of course, you don’t need to be related to Chan Heung to know everything there is to know about CLF, but it helps if you can talk to his descendants, after all they have created a large chun of the history. We can also find out by doing serious research. That gose without saying.

According to the Chen Family, there are about 148 forms but this number includes the Lion Dance techniques, training methods and Jongs. Of course, Chan Heung did not make them all up in one go, they were developed over 3 generations.

Contrary to popular belief, Chan Heung, as far as I have gathered, was not actually involved with the overthrow of the Ching Dynasty. Because of his wide contacts, he had to leave China for a while to avoid being implicated. However, he did produce many students who took part first hand in the revolutionary activities.

I agree with you, truth is often between two extreme views. To me, saying Cheung Ah Yim co-founded CLF is an extreme view, and it needs to be taken with some caution.

Joseph

13

Frank

Here you again, shooting your big mouth off without checking out the facts.

Sifu Doc Fai Wong is not strictly a memeber of the Chen Family. His last teacher. Dr. Woo Wan-Chak was a student of Chan Ngou-Sing from the Futshan Great Victory Hung Sing Branch. Later on he, like many others, he studied further with Chan Yiu-Chi in Guangzhou. So strictly speaking, that makes Sifu Wong your sigung, so please give the man some respect. I can also claim to be your sigung if I want to, but I am not going to because it will only make you throw up.

Frank, don’t be too hard on other practitioners just because they don’t come from the same branch as you are at a glance. We are always no more than 6 degress of separation when it comes to CLF. Many of our teachers studied with more than one teacher from more than one branch in their life time, so please treat each other with brotherly (and sisterly) respect and love, even though some of them don’t see eye to eye as you.

Peace, brother.

Joseph

14

Frank

Just curious, what have you got against Chen Yong-Fa? You know it is not his choosing to be born as the great great grandson of Chan Heung. I have never heard him claimed to be the greatest fighter or the top dog in the CLF world. His students gave him the title as the keeper of his family art, I think that is not an unreasonable thing to do. Why the hatre for the guy? What has he done to you? Care to tell us some of your encounters with the man? I presumed you have met him, seeing you know so much about him.

Joseph

15

Hi guys!

“Keeper of the style” shouldn’t be the one who can fight the best…but should be a person of good character and be able to pass on the tradition and system. Although the case tends to be with family members who get exclusive knowledge of the entire system.
saying that doesn’t mean who ends up being is actually fit or not fit.

Since Frank feel that Doc Fai Wong has turned his back and now 100% family history…perhaps he should talk with him. Especially since it think Doc Fai Wong lives in San Fran(i am not sure)?
and he has many theories on why the stories of Green Grass Monk might not but true since there was no “Chan” village…etc…and there were many other students that were not “Chan” family.
No matter what…Doc Fai Wong was a student of Lau Bun.

and how come Chan Yuen Wu is always left out of the conversation (except when joseph just mentioned him) and that he taught Chan Hueng Fut Gar kuen…?

and on a side note reviewing Doc Fai Wong’s book his Ng lun kuen (aka Che kuen) looks similar to both family and Lee Koon Hung’s versions

It also say that in King Mui there is a recorded history of Chan Hueng…and it was Chan Yiu chi who finally documented all the sets into books.

And I am sure through out ages the forms have been through changes…heck…the many different masters that were student of my master teach and perform their sets differently already. And we are still alive within the period to observe that.

Frank you know me, and I am not taking sides…just wanted to add my two cents as a person who is very interested in CLF.

You were right…a good fighter is about the person and not the system…to lead me to think…hmmm

and how come there is no picture of jeong yim?

Thanks for reading!

:slight_smile:

16

in order to get anywhere we must get off the little petty issues of…did he actually crush a rock…or whatever and focus on serious claims.

ie. the claim of 10yrs change seems like a big deal…perhaps we should focus more clearly on who what and evidence…etc…

to clutter the conversation with petty details that are not really of matter will only confuse and take up room for the actual issues.

This seems like a big enough deal to get people gathering for a good talk. (if it’s an actual issue)

17

I think one thing that would really blow open this issue is if the Chan Family openly published these manuals on CLF. Apparently, they won’t so their claim to the true CLF is shrouded in as much mystery as the Green Grass Monk.

Furthermore, apparently no one from the Hung Sing USA side of things had ever heard of Chen Yong Fa until a few years ago. This is a bit dubious as well.

Either way, I doubt really give a crap. The world of martial arts in general is a big egofest. You know why? Because kung fu is no longer tested on the battle field. You can shoot your mouth off and you don’t run the risk of getting your throat slashed.

If you guys want to dispute who has the real CLF why don’t you guys arrange more full contact san shou matches? Or competitions in general? This way it is no longer about who did what in the past, but who is doing something in the present.

You can be traditional and have the best lineage all you want. It really says very little about your level of skill. Look at Doc Fai Wong, great lineage from respected masters and I don’t think the guy could fight his way out of wet paper bag.

Bottom line, get to work training and promoting martial arts. True martial art is the last hope the human race has to teach our society morals and character. You guys are polluting it by making it about money and egos. Maybe you missed the most important lessons that Chinese martial arts have to offer.

Fu-Pow

18

Well said Fu Pow. Real martial artists do not slander each other.

19

nice job fu-pow

fu-pow,

man that was deep. i had to re-read it because damn man, you hit it right on the nose (hope it was a cup choy).

you are the man! (i am not being sarcastic either).

couldn’t have said it better…i’m speechless

frank :wink:

“graceful staff flies above like a dragon wiggling it’s tail-strong fist releases out like a tiger raising its head”

20

Fu-pow

you got some really good points there, but was it really necessary for you to slam Doc Fai Wong in the process of making a good point?

Well I am not sure about the publication of all their stuff but I do know that my sifu and si-bak has CLF manuals? (not sure if exactly the same but who knows?) They have a right to their privacy, and their choice to not bring them out doesn’t mean they are wrong…just that there is no proof that they are right.

Sometimes it’s about the art…since fighting is more about the fighter.