CLF History, here we go again...

For those who can read Chinese, the Lee Koon Hung Choy Lay Fut Association (Hong Hong) website has updated their information with some very interesting new materials. They have a couple of articles from the special journal published by the Association in Memory of the Founder of CLF to commemorate the 2002 international gathering of CLF practitioners in Sun Wun (aka Return to the Origin Tour II).

http://kung-fu.hk.st/

For balance, they also included an article called “Hung Sing Kuen Fa” (The Techniques of Hung Sing Fists) spoken by Lau Kam-Dong and written down by his son Lau Wai-Yip a couple of years ago. In the article, the name CLF was not mentioned at all, although the techniques discussed in the article were pure CLF, with the Ng Ying (Five Animals) and the same CLF terms like Charp Chui, Gwa Chui, Sao Chui, Pow Chui and Fan Jong etc.

Instead, Lau said Hung Sing Kuen was first called Fut Gar Sil Lum Pai (Buddhist school from Shaolin) founded by Jeong Hung Sing (Jeong Yim) after he studied with Monk Ching Cho in Bak Pai Mountain. Later it became known as Fut Gar Hung Sing and Tam Sam, a third generation disciple, founded the Fut Gar Buk Sing. Cleverly, they managed to describe CLF with a new name and Chan Heung was not mentioned at all. The end result is they did away with CLF altogether and everyone shifted up one generation.

The article was taken from the Futsan Hung Sing Gwoon 150 year’s anniversary celebrations journal published in 2001. Chan Kam-Dong studied with Tam Sam and Gu Yi-Jeung. He became well known when he fought a Russian boxer in the Model Theatre in Sai Gwan District of Guangzhou back in 1936.

With the discovery of this recent article, the pattern for a gradual re-writing of CLF history in the past 30 years became very clear:

  1. First introduce Monk Ching Cho as one of Chan Heung’s teachers and that is how the Fut in CLF came about. With this claim, Ching Cho replaces Chan Yuan-Wu, Chan Heung’s first teacher.

  2. Then changed to say Jeong Yim studied with Chin Cho as well as Chan Heung, so Jeong Yim’s Hung Sing was different (meaning better) to other branches, but Chan Heung was still considered the sole founder.

  3. Then changed the story again to say Jeong Yim, after learning for 8 years with Ching Cho in Bak Pai Mountain, came back and taught his old teacher Chan Heung what he has learned and together they co-founded CLF.

  4. Then pushed one step further and say Jeong Yim never studied with Chan Heung (according to Buck Sing elder Lun Gee, Jeong Yim only learned calligraphy from Chan Heung,) and he was the sole founder of CLF.

  5. The final step is that there was never any CLF in Jeong Yim and he only studied with Ching Cho. Chan Heung as well as CLF was not mentioned at all and the new name of Jeong Yim’s style is now called Fut Gar Hung Sing and Tarm Sam’s branch is now called Fut Gar Buk Sing.

There are some interesting variations to the story, for example, according to Dave Lacey, the name CLF was a misnomer, and it was originally called Fut Gar Jing Chung before it was changed to CLF. Frank is now promoting this story. Lau Wai-Yip is much bolder, he said his father, who studied with Tarm Sam, told him what they were doing is not related to or named CLF at all. The denial is total and final.

Sorry to bore you people with this, but Frank has started this history contrversy/debate again and I feel I have to follow through with how they rewrote history to its latest conclusion.
None of what they claimed is supported by any solid evidence, just hearsays from the “elders”.

And so the wheel turns once again. Thanks Joseph, good post; clear, concise and backed up with sources. Others could learn from this kind of research.

…it was getting kind of slow in here anywho.

nospam.
:cool:

Originally posted by nospam
[B]…it was getting kind of slow in here anywho.

nospam.
:cool: [/B]

…so we get to see “Bak Shing Fut Gar - the Final Episode”, but hold on, there is one more sequel on the horizon - Frank’s “Tien Loong Bai Mei”, the latest break-away to end all break-aways!

What do we do without him! :smiley:

twiddle your thumbs

joseph,

what would YOU do without ME?

tien loong bai mei
hey baby its here to stay,
today and forever
never to crumble in stormy weather,
whether or not you just can’t stop…
tien loong bai mei, lets hear you say…tien loong bai mei, tien loong bai mei, tien loong bai mei, tienloong bai mei!!! yay!

tell me, big brother, why does the creation of my new fighting system which is strickly a stick fighting system that has roots to hung sing clf and latosa escrima bother you so much?

you know i thought i would have far more resistance by the wing chun students i have converted over to hung sing choy lee fut than you. but hey, im not really trying to sell you on this new fighting system, it is your children, their children, and their children i am working towards.

why does it get under your skin? is it that you aren’t able to create something different? did your founder chan heung create a new fighting system? then didn’t jeong yim come by and polished up?

what hard core evidence do you have from 1836 that is not chan family related do you have that proves chan heung is the sole founder and not just an ancestor to choy lee fut?

you still cannot explain to satisfaction why chan koon pak called his school strong winning as apposed to his fathers hung sing. could it be that koon pak never really learned it all from his father and called jeong hung sing his sifu? why didn’t he use the name of his fathers school to promote chan family clf. how do you explain satisfactorily the chan heung photo mess? then ching cho does exist and is actually choy fook?! choy fook was lau fu and had a burned head, must have been a very serious scar for people to mention it in history, huh? ching cho DID NOT have a burned head and was from pak pai.

i just love how you have to scramble to come up with reasons why the hung sing family is doing what we do. you are like a spoiled brat throwing temper tamtrums. " jeong yim is not the founder, he is not the founder, no no no, he is not the founder!!!

but its far more than a small band of hung sing family members on kung fu online you have to convince. you will have to convince singapore, macau, hong kong, usa, fut san, vietnam, etc,
not just frank, k-no , d lacey-the general and i am his colonel.

we all look at you and laugh, because chan heung is only an ancestor, while jeong yim is the true founder of choy lee fut! prove us wrong with your hard facts joseph. if you cannot prove us wrong with your hard facts, the shut the fok up you silly dress wearing legshaving little hum sup lo!

luv ya lots

frank

Re: twiddle your thumbs

Originally posted by yik-wah-tik
joseph,
you still cannot explain to satisfaction why chan koon pak called his school strong winning as apposed to his fathers hung sing. could it be that koon pak never really learned it all from his father and called jeong hung sing his sifu? why didn’t he use the name of his fathers school to promote chan family clf. how do you explain satisfactorily the chan heung photo mess? then ching cho does exist and is actually choy fook?! choy fook was lau fu and had a burned head, must have been a very serious scar for people to mention it in history, huh? ching cho DID NOT have a burned head and was from pak pai.
frank

Frank,

I am not surprised if Jeong Yim taught Chan Koon-Pak (and vice versa) while they both learned from Chan Heung, after all they were sihengdi and they helped each other. That won’t qualify Jeong Yim to be Chan Koon Pak’s sifu.

The name “Heroic Victory” Hung Sing was used by CKP instead of “Great Sage” Hung Sing (written with the same first character “Hung” as in Hung Mun) to avoid being branded a revolutionary when CLF started to spread out from King Mui.

What Chan Heung photo mess? It was a badly thought out beat-up by Dave L and you fell for it.

Monk Ching Cho was Choy Fook’s Buddhist name and “Rotten Head” was his nick name. In China it is considered bad manners to use one’s Buddhist name with one’s nick name at the same time, so we don’t hear Ching Cho has a rotten head. Do you have any evidence that Ching Cho was from Pak Pai? Of course not!

Jeong Yim was not the founder of CLF because there are no evidence (primary or secondary nature) to back up this claim, whereas there are many evidence, not only from the Chan family but also from the government appointed scholars and MA experts, to show otherweise.

Futsan Hung Sing went to the history conference in Xinhui last year and they were soundly criticised for their sloppy research. If you can read the Chinese transcripts you will know what I am talking about.

If you bother to read what I wrote at the beginning of this thread you will see the chronological development of people attempting to rewrite history in recent years with nothing but thin air.

Joseph

Mean while up in Wulin heaven…

Chan Heung & Jeung Yim are standing around hanging their heads while Bruce Lee is councilling them on coming to terms with the fact that there is little they can do up there about the common misconceptions that arise about their arts.

Message here; Guys get a life!

:smiley: : :stuck_out_tongue:

blaa blaa, blaa blaa blaa, blaa blaa

http://www.buksing.com/special_message/special_message_1.html Old? No sh*t

“It was Chen Heung” “No, it was Jeong Yim!” “Chen Heung!” “Jeong Yim!” - “Guys, stfu and keep on training”

:smiley:

Good colour choice; black on red. :eek:

Re: twiddle your thumbs

Originally posted by yik-wah-tik
joseph,
tien loong bai mei
hey baby its here to stay,
today and forever
never to crumble in stormy weather,
whether or not you just can’t stop…
tien loong bai mei, lets hear you say…tien loong bai mei, tien loong bai mei, tien loong bai mei, tienloong bai mei!!! yay!
frank

Interesting Frank, on your own school website it says you will teach Butterfly Double Short Sticks, no mention at all of “tien loong bai mei”:

“ON MARCH 20,2003 (FOR 2 WEEKS ONLY) A SEMINAR/ ADVANCED WORKSHOP ON HUNG-SING CHOY-LEE-FUT TECHNIQUES AND SHORT DOUBLE STICKS( WOO-DIP SERNG SIL GWUN) HOW TO USE THE BUTTERFLY KNIVES ,ARE BEING GIVEN BY SEFU FRANK McCARTHY OF SAN FRANCISCO TOGETHER WITH AND HOSTED BY INSTRUCTOR JIM CARROLL OF THE HUNG SING STUDIO of KANSAS CITY, KANSAS. CLASSES TO BE HELD IN OVERLAND PARK, JUST SOUTH OF KANSAS CITY. FOR RATES AND LOCATION CALL JIM CARROLL AT 1-(913) 385-2942 KANSAS CITY.”

http://hungsing.com/

If you look at the “Founder” webpage, your school didn’t claimed Jeong Yim was the founder of CLF, it said he was the founder of Hung Sing branch of CLF and that was all, there is a huge difference between the two claims in case you don’t know:

“The HUNG-SING branch of Choy-Lee-Fut was founded by Jeung,Hung-Sing whose original birth name was Jeung, Yim.”

http://hungsing.com/index2.htm

I just love the way you have exagerated and drammatised to get some attention. Now that you have got what you want, can we have some peace and quiet? You are just wasting my time.

once again, huh joseph

so joseph once again you are fooled by mere words. like you always are believing in everything you read. do you know that what my sifu is teaching is called what it is called and i teach something i teach with my influence and not my sifu’s. he totally backs me up, just because you read the writing on the wall you miss all the heavenly glory. and for your information instructor jim carroll is my student dumb ass!!! he will be assisting me in my teaching tien loong bai mei.

my sifu is teaching wu dip serng guan which has his own ideas and influences and will intertwine with mine because the basics are all the same. yet i teach what i have a little differently because i am an individual whose sifu has always stressed to branch out. see when i teach my sifu’s students i will teach them wu dip serng guan.
and what i teach my students i will teach them tien loong bai mei since i don’t follow the same guidelines as he does. i also have a mind and my own beliefs and own experiences. and that is his rule, not mine that when i assist him in teaching my classmates i teach what he teaches, but he allows me to teach my students the i chose because they are MY students. anyway, i still teach the way my teacher teaches me, but i have my dreams as well. and my dreams have already been set in motion as of march 20-april 6 2003. would you like to attend a seminar? it is $30 a day. training is intense. i am sure you will decline joseph. you probably have something better to do right? while i continue to promote my system of stick fighting.

as i already said about you being fooled by words, my sifu is notorious for not saying what he means. do you know what he personally feel about this situation? i do for sure! do you talk to him everyday as i do? maybe my sifu is attempting to stay out of this mess by not rocking the boat. but i will tell you this, you truly don’t know my sifu, so stop trying to tear it apart because i am aware of all my actions in which i purposely intiate with a goal in mind. and you are nothing but my guinea pig.

i play you like a newly built fiddle, strings all nice and taught. joseph, you have revealed to me what you know and what you don’t. i am a little smarter than you think. i have been pulling your strings all along. causing you to react exactly how i want to.
by my ranting and raving i have forced you to show your hand and it happens every time. it is you who now promotes my tien loong bai mei for me. it is you who has just gave my student face for putting his name on kfo. it you who has just caused a new wave of people to go and visit my sifu’s website. it is you who posted articles from the fut san hung sing kwoon, promoting their history as well. from jeong yims lineage…we thank you big brother joseph for bringing our gung fu more out in the open and for causing people to gain an interest into my tien loong bai mei. thank you .

frank

The Martial Way Begins and Ends with Courtesy …

Respect Kung Fu Ancestors and founders

Respect all styles and systems equally

Respect others no matter what art they practice.

Never condemn anyone.

Every art has something good.

There is nothing like absolute truth. No style has the truth

Train dilligently day after day

Practise Kung Fu Life in all its fascets

Respect your family and society

No principle is obsessive

But Frank, all this attention your site and you are getting is negative. Every time you post you become more of a joke.

That great rambling post above makes hardly any sense, do you realise that?

:rolleyes:

you guys are so fookin esoteric!! hhahahahahahahaha

white people acting as if their chinese. attempting outdo chinese at being chinese. spouting off chinese philosophy. wow, you guys are great. you remind me of a traditonal chinese restaurant ran, operated, and owned by white people. no chinese anywhere.

What, you mean like you being a fat white thug supposedly practising Chinese kung fu?

Frank,

I can understand it is easy to make a fool of yourself but please don’t make a fool of your own teacher. Sifu Dino deserve better from you.

I don’t know if you are arware of what you are saying but you are telling the world your sifu don’t say what he means and that amounts to telling lies (“my sifu is notorious for not saying what he means”). Tha is an insult.

You are also telling the world you don’t teach or do what you are taught (“see when i teach my sifu’s students i will teach them wu dip serng guan and what i teach my students i will teach them tien loong bai mei”), so that amounts a disobedient student using your sifu to furhter your own ambition. Now that is another insult for him.

I don’t know Sifu Dino well, but he doesn’t deserve this from you!

big bother oh i mean brother freud-slip

you don’t know me or my sifu at all. what do you mean you don’t know my sifu well?

are you making up more stories on knowing my sifu?

did u sleep well bother?

Frank,

I know of your sifu more than you realized. You only know how to insult people like a bull out of a china shop. Whether I slept well or not is non of your business unless you want to cling to my buttocks as well! You know what happened when you clinged to Serpent’s! :smiley:

hi guys

does anyone really know that loud mouth frank mccarthy? is he a real choy lee fut man?

i am from the fut san hung sing school and wow he is really an embarrassment. i was talking to my sifu and although he said what frank was spouting off about was true, he didn’t have to act as badly as he did. regardless if he is a brother or not, i will have to speak with his sifu. his actions are deplorable. and the hung sing tattoos on his chest should be cut off an burned.

after listeninig to all the debate i think i am also a chan family supporter now. i think it may be better if i stopped learning from my sifu and take on a chan family sifu. it seems like Hung Sing choy lee fut is something totally different than the chans stuff. the hung sing people are just too aggressive and always like a good fight. but i woulld rather expound on the best qualities clf has to offer.

i would really like to hear what most of you know about each other branchse not the history, but about usages and the like.

what is technique wise different between all 3 branches? there has to be some differences in usage?

what is technique wise different between all 3 branches? there has to be some differences in usage?

You can begin describing the technique wise of your school.