Fujian white crane fused with emei snake hybrid

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
41

Bottom line: you are comparing apples and oranges. Tiet Sien Kuen is nothing like SLT. Not really a great discovery there. Two completely different forms designed to teach two completely different things. Tiet Sien Kuen isn’t the same as Sam Bo Ging either. That, however does not mean that your version of WCK has anything over on any other system.

Hendrick, you put out alot of great information. You get into trouble when you start to mention and draw comparisons to techniques and styles you have not experienced first hand.
Many of us (myself included) respect you for your knowledge on internal aspects of WCK.

42

[QUOTE=TenTigers;1012791]Bottom line: you are comparing apples and oranges. Tiet Sien Kuen is nothing like SLT. Not really a great discovery there. Two completely different forms designed to teach two completely different things. Tiet Sien Kuen isn’t the same as Sam Bo Ging either. That, however does not mean that your version of WCK has anything over on any other system.

Hendrick, you put out alot of great information. You get into trouble when you start to mention and draw comparisons to techniques and styles you have not experienced first hand.
Many of us (myself included) respect you for your knowledge on internal aspects of WCK. [/QUOTE]

1, So, what is the problem?

This is WCK forum and why is I am presenting one must not do SLT as Hung Gar Iron wire a problem for you?

2, You can believe what you want and defending what you want. I totally accept that and allow that.

3, Speaking of precise technology, that is independent of Hendrik or anyone’s experience,

By Technology fact,

The fact is Iron Wire doesnt manifest Six Directional force because it is a different type of technology.

and also, Iron Wire doesnt lead the flow of the Zhen Qi as in Emei 12 Zhuang or Wu taiji.

Where SLT has both.

So, what happen with IRon Wire in the realm of Qi cultivation and Force vectors generation and handling?

As I mention above, one needs to go beyond physical layer to see the signature or different layers. and so I invite you to go beyond the physical layer to see what is SLT and what is IRon wire.

Similar to a food, if it got vitamin A then it got vitamin A, got nothing to do with which doctor said what.

43

Ever wonder why there are so many books out on Tai-Chi? Because there are so many levels to understanding this art, and each person’s experience is different.

I dont buy the reasoning above totally.

a Taichi no matter how many practice it will not become Shao Lin.

When a Taichi evolve into Shao lin, it cant be call Taichi anymore.

when a junior do Taichi that is not even taichi yet. There are standard which needs to be attained. and there are things the set cant attain. IE a taiji set will not yield a Shao Lin hard style power.

Also, who create Tiet Sien Kuen or Iron wire set? look at the person who create it and look at his kungfu style. that is what determine what it is. it is not up for anyone’s intepretation. one sure can improve it however that is no longer what it is.

44

what puzzles me is why people solely look at Tiet Sien Kuen when speaking of the short bridges and energy development? A better example in my opinion, would be the oepning sections of FHSYK. This shows the short bridge hands of the Snake and Crane. (this also depends on who is playing the form and how he is playing it. There are as many versions of FHSYK as there are SLT. But how many do SLT the way you do it?)
As far as the development of TSK? Nobody knows for sure. WFH learned form Lam Fook Sing who learned from Leung Guan. Some say Leung Guan learned from the Red Eyebrow Monk. Some also say that Sam Dart was the Red Eyebrow Monk.

I’m not sure where you are going with the, “Tai Chi cannot evolve into Shaolin?”
then again, didn’t Gen. Jiang study at Shaolin? Isn’t he credited with teaching the Chen village? That would mean, Tai-Chi IS Shaolin! LOL
ok, depends on which version you go by. Some people believe Chang Seng-Feng created it in Wudan…

45

IMHO, Seriously, in the reality

1, if one cant go beyond the physical shape or form it is a dead trap for getting stuck, and confusion of look a like.

2, if one keep speculate myth and legend and his-story and he says she says without getting to the core elements of the technology; then, there is not much technology but lots of says which will never produce anything advance.

3, every art if it is legitimate has a force vectors signature. The taiji cultivation is very different from the Shao Lin cultivation. when one cant attain that signature then one is no longer know that art, even one could spend a life time practice the form or set.

46

Gentle-ly defeat the opponent, in a matter of within an inch.

IMHO, in a matter of within an inch is talking about contact point.
Meaning, at the contact point of two physical object different force vectors were inject into the motion system if one look at two person’s action as a motion system.

Thus, it is not about moving the hand or leg within an inch to defeat the opponent. it is at the contact point the one who could manual the force vectors in different ways defeat the others. It plays with force vectors instead of different physical technics which needs feet to manual.

47

Sooner or later… Hendrik always self destructs. :rolleyes:

48

The IW is an “custom” set, hence there are many variations.
Depending on what one is wanting to get out of the IW, it is done accordingly.
The sequence and moves are, to an extent, irrelevant, as long as they are balanced.
It can be a complete dynamic tension set to build strength, it can be done in a “taiji” mode to build relaxation and cultivate “chi”, it can blend both ala Chen Taiji, or it can be done in an explosive method.
Rik is right about the Tiger and crane set beginning sequence and SLT.

Fact is, ANY forms is done according to what ones to get out of it at that point in time, I’d be more concerned about those that do ANY form the same way all the time, like mimicking robots.

49

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1012847]
Fact is, ANY forms is done according to what ones to get out of it at that point in time, I’d be more concerned about those that do ANY form the same way all the time, like mimicking robots.[/QUOTE]

Forms (linked sets) might have some limited usefulness as a “textbook” to a particular art or for developing basic level coordination, but you can’t develop mechanics or attributes to any significant degree by practicing movements unrealistically in the air.

50

[QUOTE=t_niehoff;1012849]Forms (linked sets) might have some limited usefulness as a “textbook” to a particular art or for developing basic level coordination, but you can’t develop mechanics or attributes to any significant degree by practicing movements unrealistically in the air.[/QUOTE]

Well…I think that one probably CAN, but I don’t know of many that do.
I mean, a form is NOT one, long sequence of moves, it is a combination of different sequences.
The realistic element is the issue, you can’t really “fight the air” to learn to fight, but you can fight the air AFTER you have learned to fight.

51

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1012850]Well…I think that one probably CAN, but I don’t know of many that do.
I mean, a form is NOT one, long sequence of moves, it is a combination of different sequences.
The realistic element is the issue, you can’t really “fight the air” to learn to fight, but you can fight the air AFTER you have learned to fight.[/QUOTE]

I don’t doubt that “shadow boxing”, where you spar an imaginary opponent, is useful training, and that your ability to shadow box will correspond to your experience sparring (after you have learned to fight).

But FIXED forms?

52

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1012847]The IW is an “custom” set, hence there are many variations.
Depending on what one is wanting to get out of the IW, it is done accordingly.
The sequence and moves are, to an extent, irrelevant, as long as they are balanced.
It can be a complete dynamic tension set to build strength, it can be done in a “taiji” mode to build relaxation and cultivate “chi”, it can blend both ala Chen Taiji, or it can be done in an explosive method.
Rik is right about the Tiger and crane set beginning sequence and SLT.

Fact is, ANY forms is done according to what ones to get out of it at that point in time, I’d be more concerned about those that do ANY form the same way all the time, like mimicking robots.[/QUOTE]

This view is a complete misleading on TCMA.

There is no such thing as custom set. A set has its purpose and characteristics.

It is also extremely misleading to think doing things in a taiji mode to build relaxation and cultivate chi. or blend both ala chen taiji or done in complete dynamic tension. So, define what is Iron Wire set for? There is no Such thing as as you like it set.

Who in the history up to today has achieved Taji cultivation of open up Ren and Du with Iron Wire practice?

Who in the history up to today has attain the Yiquan six directional force power generation with Iron Wire practice?

IN fact, based on the structure of Iron Wire, the above two cannot be done.

And dont believe me, just go find a person any person or master who could attain the above two elements with practicing Iron wire set. instead of argue and misleading the world on " oh, I have it too, I can do that too."

99% of those doing it slowly and relax wishing it to becomes internal stuffs is a fantasy. and infact cant be done. look at the statistic. look at the facts.

This is a deadly trap for TCMA coming to the west those who adapted this view is just cheating oneself. It simply cannot be done but lots of lips service. Some do that when they couldnt even handle the basic, and taking this so called relaxing internal path to cheat themself and others to defend their own ego. and the fact is it never get conclusive. the training goes no where even after 10000 years.

I have always asked people here, so show me how you evoke your Zhen Qi. if one cant then one’s so called Taiji mimic-ing practice is just a dance. Yes a dance as it is a dance. It will not get one into internal. but a relaxation game no more then slow dancing.

53

[QUOTE=Hendrik;1012866]I have always asked people here, so show me how you evoke your Zhen Qi. if one cant then one’s so called Taiji mimic-ing practice is just a dance. Yes a dance as it is a dance. It will not get one into internal. but a relaxation game no more then slow dancing.[/QUOTE]

Considering the above, what you’re also saying is that if you have not had this tuition (from yourself?) then the SLT practise is useless.

Is there no other way to benefit or cultivate your qi other than the methods you have proposed? :confused:

54

[QUOTE=Hendrik;1012866]This view is a complete misleading on TCMA.

There is no such thing as custom set. A set has its purpose and characteristics.

It is also extremely misleading to think doing things in a taiji mode to build relaxation and cultivate chi. or blend both ala chen taiji or done in complete dynamic tension. So, define what is Iron Wire set for? There is no Such thing as as you like it set.

[/QUOTE]

Dude, I don’t think you understood anything I wrote.

55

[QUOTE=t_niehoff;1012856]I don’t doubt that “shadow boxing”, where you spar an imaginary opponent, is useful training, and that your ability to shadow box will correspond to your experience sparring (after you have learned to fight).

But FIXED forms?[/QUOTE]

See, now you are getting into an area and debate as old as the hills on grannys chest, and twice as dusty.

56

True.

And for me, the answer is to never stop doing the forms, but to do them less-and-less as time goes on - and shadow box more.

That is, when a sparring partner is not available…

or when you’re alone and some new idea about something comes into your head (or something you’ve seen someone else do lights a match in your head)…

then shadow boxing can be very helpful.

57

Is there no other way to benefit or cultivate your qi other than the methods you have proposed? :confused:

I have shared a method within the TCMA IMA, there are lots of different methods not only limited to what I shared. However, all the method must satisfied key elements in TCMA IMA otherwise it doesnt work well or completely stuck.

IE. one cant make believe one drive a four wheel drive car when in fact one is driving a two wheel drive car.

If one doesnt know about the differences between a two wheel drive and four wheel drive; thinking driving a two wheel drive with the low gear is the same with driving a four wheel drive; then one is fantasying.

To build a four wheel drive, there are many ways. however, it is not same with building the two wheel drive way.

If one substitude IMA as four wheel drive and External art as two wheel drive in the example above ; one cant’ just relax and practice something slowly to make it Qi cultivaton…etc. it is not design for that purpose.

One got to know what is the set is design for and design with,

IE a four wheel drive or a two wheel drive.

expecting to get any result without knowing what one is driving or what is what and what is it for is just a mesh.

Too bad some take pride on this type of mesh, they think this type of mesh up is their intepretation or the WAY…the Dao. That is a totally misleading because they will never get any advance stuff out it. but mostly inconclusive and stuck.

IE: is your SLT internal art? yes. can you use it face mma figther? nope. I am going to learn boxing to face mma figther. So what is the point of that internal art? what does it do? can you heal your body with it? or it contribute nothing but empty ego stroking.

A TCMA set is like a vehicle,
one needs to know what is it and how is it. It is very specific.
IE
a Bus is not a sport car. a frond wheel drive is not a back wheel drive, a mid engine car is not a front engine car. thus a BMW is not a Civic. A Prius is not a Boxter. it is not just naming there are uniqueness which is different.

58

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1012889]Dude, I don’t think you understood anything I wrote.[/QUOTE]

I totally understood what you wrote and knowing that path is a totally mess.

But then I totally accept anyone to take those path because it is none of my business if one love to fantasy.

59

I feel like Rip van Winkle just woke up from an thousand years snooze, I swear this thread is about the possible WC connection to the crane/snake. For sure that I and many other would rather like to hear more about it. ;):wink:

60

Hendrick-how does your ch’i-gung affect sexual performance? You’ve no doubt heard of the Pa Kua master who used to frequent a brothel and satisfy every woman in there, without expelling his jing.
So..my gf, after an evening of um, practice…told me, “That’s it! No more of your Ch’i-Gung! You’re killing me!”
(ahem..) ah, yep…so..can your 12 Zhangs do that? :smiley: