Forms- A waste of time????

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
41

Begby - what you talk about is not an issue with the forms but an issue with the guys training. If you cant use your art in a real fight you are doing something wrong in training period, not doing too much form work, but like Ap said, maybe relying too muc on them as a guide? Forms are a guide, they guide you through your arts lexicon of techniques, and they guide your body through the positions you must assume for some of these. Doing them repeatedly reinforces both of these but never mistake that those forms are not for fighting.

"Forms don’t teach one how to fight. Boxing does. Forms don’t teach you how to take a hit. Boxing does. Forms will build stamina, but not nearly as much as boxing.(that may all depend on how much one trains though) "

This is a gross misunderstanding of what forms are, they are not an art unto themselves, boxing is. sparring ,drills, all do the things that sparring, drills in boxing will do.

As for kungfu guys kickboxing could be just your experience. I know alot of KF guys here locally who dont. My entire class for instance.

Comparing forms to choreagraphed dancing is unfair to the forms. and shows you are just missing a basic understanding of what forms are for.

I am not trying to offend you, dont misunderstand my opinions as calling you stupid, I am just saying that you have fallen into the same trap many people have.

42

Gabriel–

Heavyweight boxing, for one, sucks right now. It’s boring. Watch the lighter guys.

Secondly, you begin the punch in the legs in boxing, period. Anybody who tells you otherwise doesn’t know how to box. Who are you watching that arm punches?

Static stances? Big guys tend to be slower with less movement. You would be too if you were/are that size and had to make sure to manage your energy for 12 rounds–watch the lighter people, and you’ll see all the movement you could hope for. Here’s a mantra for you–when you stop moving, you get hit. It’s that simple. In Tyson’s day, he was a movement FIEND. That’s how he got inside and unloaded those big shots, which, by the way, were clearly generated in the legs without getting mauled.

Lewis vs Rahman–lewis got lazy and had crappy movement–he got knocked out.

Lewis vs Rahman II–Lewis was on fire, moving and firing his jab from the outside, taking angles, and basically making Rahman pay. Rahman had lousy movement and got knocked out.

Boxing is NOT a complete fighting art. It’s a sport. But it IS a complete PUNCHING art. And quite frankly, it’s a beautiful and subtle punching art. People who can’t appreciate fine boxing are martially challenged.

43

good stuff each of you. :slight_smile:

shaolin boxer: to your earlier question, i’d say forms should focus less on fluidity (even though it’s important) and more on distinctness and completion of technique. if you’re not finishing a technique before flowing into the next one when practicing forms, you probably will, out of sheer habit (hence the necessity of forms) not finish your technique when needed.

i study wing tsun, and a huge mistake i’m making (for all you wing tsun/chun/etc. folks) in my chum kiu is not turning as fully as i should, and when it comes down to chi sau and lat sau applications, i don’t turn fully there (rather, i get knocked on my bum if the person is reasonably bigger than me). :frowning:

44

“I would like to know what the opinion of learning forms are?”

Good cardio and excellent for developing spped.

45

Yes. For the majority of practitioners out there, especially gung fu - forms are a great waste of time if you are making reference to their use as a training tool to increase one’s ability to fight with their respective style.

They have become as useful at determining ability as the coloured belt ranking system.

If you are training (2-person and sparring) what you are practising in the forms, then you’re not wasting your time and you more thank likely have really lucked out and found a teacher worth her/his weight in green tea.

nospam.
:cool:

46

red5angel, I stand by what I said. :slight_smile:
“One place that forms and kata have for the most part become less than optimum is as encyclopedias of a styles advanced techniques. These days we have print and video to store these on.”

While forms are great for a good many things they are no longer needed as a store house of techniques. For many arts this is a moot point since their kata, forms and hyungs have drifted off of their creators original intent anyway, (I also believe that some have retained the intentions but they’re few and far ). For example I’m learning my masters version of the Chonji set of TKD which is a variation of the Heian kata of Shotokan which are variations of what Funakoshi learned on Okinawa. I won’t get into the variations of Seisan kata among Okinawan styles.

Also the store house idea breaks down since each group of moves may have multiple applications. To make many of those applications work slight changes need to be made to the movement. So here’s the question which version of the form should be taught? The one that shows application A, or the one that shows application B? Or maybe the secret hidden move?

Also forms tend to drift over time, not to mention people adding their own personal perfomance stamp to them. Did Yip Mans SLT remain exactly the same, what about his students? Did theirs? Which is the correct version of SLT? Is there one?

By storing what the intent of any move is , it’s variations, and it’s intended targets on an adequet medium, we can get rid of the laborious task of reinventing the wheel over and over again.

47

Rogue.

I kinda disagree with you.
Forms are more than just a catalogue of techniques.

Also if everybody does the exact same Form from the exact same tapes you would loose individuality and with that an opportunity to let the style grow and advance further.
Also Forms allow you to train the transitions between techniques, I know many styles where a student has to create his “own Form” and than explain to his sifu why he created it and what he thinks the benefits of this movement orders are (attacks, defense, next opponent).

Forms are not the end to the training, but are designed to let the student take them apart and explore them further and gain new insights.

I see them as a set of technqiues shown in one of many ways that we can do them, finding more ways/combinations/applications is up to you the student.
But than many people might not agree with me.
Peace.

48

Apoweyn - now I feel we are getting somewhere. Not in respects to the boxing, MA question. I mean, thats just a question of one weapon that is extremely strong and developed vs a plethora of different techniques, that, separately, may not measure up, but the sum of all the parts may be stronger than the one. But whatever. There are different schools of thought on this, and neither side will be convinced one way or the other. What I am encouraged by is the lack of a condescending tone. I have found that many on this forum, regardless of their post count, have been condescending and “all-knowing” :rolleyes: . This has been extremely discouraging for me to even carry on posting here. Because my ultimate aim here is to exchange ideas, and learn new viewpoints, and to meet fellow MA’ists. However, alot of times, instead of friendly exchange of information and ideas, training methods, ect, it ends up being a competition. Try looking at some of my previous posts on other threads. Imho some of those posts have been well thought out and delivered, only to be answered with a single question about one point or facet of my post. When I answer this question, I get another question, or worse, just ignored. Sometimes I am just ignored outright. The impression I get sometimes from some of these “wise” posters is that they only search for guys they can openly ridicule and assert their knowledge over. Whereas, if someone happens to disagree intelligently they just get the question or platitude treatment. And I suspect that some on here are just martial scholars, or greatly exaggerating their abilities. The assumption, imo, that those with higher posts here are more experienced, is just wrong. Im sure that there are people excellently skilled in the MA that have never even heard of Kungfuonline. So, I apologize for any assumption I made about your character. And I will give you benefit of the doubt next time. :slight_smile:

RedAngel - I agree to the fact that there are those more experienced than me on this forum. However, if, in order to get this “jewel” from a wise master of the internet, I have to kiss a$$, I absolutely refuse. And the assumption on Ap’'s character, though wrong, was precendented by my previous experiences on this forum.

Begby - Im not sure I understand what you mean by kickboxing during sparring. So I will ask for clarification as has been suggested. I will say that I think your concept of kickboxing and mine differ.

MP-

"Boxing is NOT a complete fighting art. It’s a sport. But it IS a complete PUNCHING art. And quite frankly, it’s a beautiful and subtle punching art. "

I agree completely and wholeheartedly.

NoSpam - I am curious how you know what the majority of gung fu practitioners feel about forms, as opposed to what you and your school feel..these are different things altogether. Also, I don’t know about your place, but we don’t just stress forms to advance to the next level. We stress sparring, sticking, technique, athleticism and others. And we have no color belts. I have already outlined why I feel forms are beneficial, so I will not reiterate.

Gabriel

49

Shadow Dragon

I agree with you, what I don’t believe forms are good for is being the sole repository of applications, too many things get lost. They are still excellent for training the movements that the applications use though.

I still use my broke TKD hyungs to get ideas from, though I don’t think my applications were the intended ones.

50

Hi begby, hopefully I’m not seeming to pick on you. Muay Thai seems to have a choice amount range of techniques not the same size as Kung-Fu’s. If I can speak fluently four languages, I wouldn’t initially speak German to the English only speaker. Or Speak a language the other person didn’t seem to speak. I might fight only the range my opponent(partner) speaks~

Boxing type fighting has seemingly been around for a while in at least some parts of the United States of America. When you see the majority of people around you who do somerthing, doing that, you might tend to pick it up yourself. Some people don’t readily tie-in things or associate things. Taking the Kung-Fu classes, one could be getting a great resource for becomming a good fighter. Not the one step thinking of the form Makes it happen. But that through the form there are things within and around the learning of the form that are all the ingredients a person would need to be a good fighter.

Some children are knowing. Doing high level math, reading on a college level years before being stereotypical college age. Stereotypically these people are a storehouse of facts, but don’t have the association comprehension for much humor or interacting smoothly with others. Things are statistical and analitical. And they lack a skill of connecting. Chinese Kung-Fu seems to have aspects. The School is more like a family. Help is sought from within. From fixing things in the school, to outreach projects. And you learn etiquet and culture and socializing, power, restraint, control, focus, discerning use of strength…by just being in that environment. A piece here. A piece there. A person learns without trying. Some who are impatient and determine what they need might skip important things in their developing.Because they determine it’s about this or that. And Actually miss-out or don’t get, what it Really is. Although they can do a lot of movements, and move differently/better than they did before they started.

People seem to have different experiences. There might be a single Truth made-up of many different ways. Many same ways. But each opinion might be a glimpse of that Truth, as comprehended by that person through whatever means. People’s thinking might be off, but no person is ever wrong.~

As far as an absolute truth; yes, people here could be wrong. But it is more at, their speaks are incomplete and they No_Know of this. But in effect, nearly everyone can be correct, in their understanding as far as the statistics/facts/numbers.

Perhaps the best we could do would be to listen to each other, put the pieces together. And hope that we do something other than believe in our presumptions (without sound basis), talk from Arrogance or think we are exempt from No_Knowing.~

51

No_Know

Mate I have to read your posts twice, slowly.:slight_smile:

52

gabriel,

no harm, no foul my friend. this medium gets the better of all of us sometimes. in fact, i’m stressed out of my mind right now (midterms, full-time job, wedding, etc.). some of that may well have come across in my post to you. if it did, i’m sorry.

stuart b.

53

Gabriel,

Stick around–there’s some worthwhile gems :slight_smile:

54

I like to think I twinkle in the sh!t once in a while.:slight_smile:

55

listen

Any traditional instructor worth his salt will tell you that karate and chuan fa begins and starts with kata/hsing/forms. I have never heard someone of Morio Higaonna’s caliber or Fusei Kise’s caliber say that forms were a waste of time. They are the soul of a style and its teacher(s).

I have never seen a karateka who was really good at forms and bunkai oyo, or application interpretation, and not good at kumite or fighting. Most cats that don’t have the memory (mental or muscle) required for kata training, can’t fight in the ring or real life.

The essence of the Eastern striking arts is contained in the forms. Some have changed a little over time, but many still retain the same flavor as the original. Even amongst diverse styles like Shotokan, S h i t oRyu, Tang Soo Do, TKD, Shorin, Isshin and most modern derivations of Okinawan Ti or “Te”, the similarities are more evident than the differences.

If you don’t believe in exercising the mind and body then do some martial sport stuff. Lose braincells and mobility, cripple yourself, and see if kata training is bad then. I like to beat my own arse real good so that when they hijack the plane I’ll be too broke-up and without a clue about REAL self-preservation, to do anything about it. Ding-ding… Round 2…

56

I said it once, I’ll say it again:

There’s nothing about “martial arts,” vice “martial sports,” that preserves the body.

The repeated poundings you take in long term competition is what leads to physical problems later in life.

IF there were a tournament sportfighting circuit for “insert style here,” with the same caliber of opponent you have in Judo, boxing, MT, wrestling, BJJ, etc, then those people would be just as beat up later in life.

That said–again, there’s nothing wrong with Kata or Forms–they’re a fine training tool.

57

OmegaPoint, in your experience what percentage of karate instructors taught kata as more than an excercise? How many even realize that they may be used to discover applications?

"They are the soul of a style and its teacher(s). "
Good point.

58

Forms work is important! But does your KF style teach you the two-person to your form?

59

“Forms work is important! But does your KF style teach you the two-person to your form?”

The form teaches one the two-person. Strikes are to certain locations (even if general). Block type moves are there to deflect/redirect particular strikes.

Two-person form helps one learn the techniques better for at least some. The sense of urgency puts the significance there more strongly for those who don’t see in their mind well enough.

Each strike might have an attack comming at me from any of the surrounding direction. So (needle-and-thread) either I would strike again or grab , or deflect… But it’s Not merely moves. It’s purposeful action. If you can imagine that (not a question).

60

I’ve been gone too long… No_Know speaks English now?