Forms- A waste of time????

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
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99% 'cause there ain’t no absolutes…

Originally posted by rogue
[B]OmegaPoint, in your experience what percentage of karate instructors taught kata as more than an excercise? How many even realize that they may be used to discover applications?

"They are the soul of a style and its teacher(s). "
Good point. [/B]

At least in the Shorin systems I’ve studied, kihon bunkai (basic analysis), and oyo bunkai (advanced applications and understanding), were a very integral part of the forms training.

Then again, the systems I’ve concentrated on, Shorinkan (Kobayashi Shorin) and Matsumura Orthodox ShuriTe, are not far removed from the original intent of the system.

Shorinkan is very competition oriented, but Shuguro Nakazato, Hanshi was a direct student of Choshin Chibana who learned from the original “Masters”. He emphasizes kata and application of techs in kata above all else, especially ranking. My Sensei in the Philippines learned under Nakazato O-Sensei, so nothing was really lost.

My current instructor, Ronald Lindsey, Kyoshi was a student of Hohan Soken (amongst other Okinawan greats) who in turn learned from his uncle Matsumura Nabe, who learned directly from Matsumura Sokon, the father of your karate systems and mine. Kata is the vehicle by which techs are transported over generations. There has been a few modifications, but if you watch video of Hohan Soken, Fusei Kise and Ronald Lindsey performing techs and kata, you will see more similarities than differences.

It’s hard to teach the application of a movement based on personal interpretation only. When some knucklehead like Robert Trias or James Mitose claims that they learned the proper forms and application from someone you gotsta’ research it. If there is no physical proof to corraborate their claims, then how do you know that what your learning is not more contrived than the “real” stuff? Trust me , even the Gracies don’t divulge all their secrets. There are secrets in karate and other arts, but you have to be willing to research them and their validity, to see if legitimacy dwells there. When people talk about “secrets” in MAs this is what they are talking about. Not everyone is in on the “secrets” but some of us at least, have a slight clue.

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What evidence do you have that the “Gracies,” as if they were all the same “borg” entity, haven’t divulged all their “secrets?” As if there were such a thing in an art with such a competitive background that arose in the training tradition of Kano’s Judo–where nothing is held back?

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begby
[I]If one does not APPLY these applications when sparring, and especially if one is not TAUGHT to apply them in fighting, they should re-evaluate their whole martial arts career.

I’ve seen well-known SIFU…who don’t use ANY ASPECT of their styles while fighting. I’m stating a fact here. Go to ANY tournament and watch the advanced sparring. 90% of it will be simple kickboxing with an occasional sweep. [/I]

My poignant point as well. It is a disgrace. It is a farce. It is merely business and a woefully obvious state of poor training and instruction. That is why I say for the majority - forms are useless. I have posted a thread about this in the Southern board.

The above is why peopel feel ‘traditional’ training is useless/ineffectual in today’s world. And because of the ‘above’ - I agree. Spend your time drilling 2-person combos (these ‘modern’ forms are more beneficial and effective than most of the form practised) and sparring.

nospam.
:cool:

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OmegaPoint, when you say secrets what do you mean?

Don’t forget that since I’m working mostly with the TKD Chonji patterns along with Enpi, Tekki 1,2 &3, Bassai and Kusanku I’m not fully counting on finding too many secrets. Right now it’s enough work doing kihon bunkai on them, trying them out in one step sparring and then trying them out in full sparring. It’s hard to see if a move is a secret or just there because someone thought it’d look good.

The Okinawan karate may be different though.

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A plausable explaination might be that *******'s Universal Translator was on :slight_smile: lol

Some-such perhaps, some might say. Whatever whatever, very whatever, some good :~>

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Choy Li Fut forms

Well perhaps in other martial arts, forms are purely for shows but at least
in Choy Lay Fut, the forms we have are very combat and self defense effective.