Forms- A waste of time????

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
21

forms

as a wing chun guy - the forms we practice are neither flashy nor useless

i cant count the number of times while sparring that my ingrained reactions from practicing a form have save my butt

a lot of the times a hand or leg will fly out and ill be “oh whered that come from” then realize it was straight out of the dummy form

forms may be useless to many people - simply because of the fact they are too **** LAZY to practice them often enough so the motions become second hand

not only that, they give you a nice testing ground for your root and power generation, and other nice quailities that many people who do not do forms seem to gloss over

perhaps the reason many people find forms so unattractive is they dont want to be “bored” by doing something over and over, or have to put in a little hard work

but kung fu by name IS hard work

sorry about ranting but im a little grumpy when i just wake up :slight_smile:

peace
trav

22

sho,

fair enough. but i don’t agree that you can “know what it’s like even from little experience.” i don’t understand how that works. the fact that you recognize the basics and can perform them on the most basic level is not the same as ‘understanding.’ that takes time and practice, like in anything else.

the brilliance is in the details. the difference between a mediocre boxer and a great boxer is in small manipulations of key concepts (timing, distance, etc.). how is that any more shallow than gung fu?

masters of gung fu aren’t masters because they can now do more flying and spinning moves. right? they’re masters because they understand their basics to a degree that they can manipulate and adapt them at will. and that’s what a good boxer does. so what’s the difference?

as for the mental angle, that comes down to individuals. i’ve seen plenty of martial arts schools that lack any measure of mental depth. and i think we tend to overlook the mental frame of reference for boxing because it’s already so firmly entrenched in our psyche. the mental aspects of martial arts stick out like a sore thumb because they’re exotic to us. the ideas of blood, sweat, and tears are as mental though if spoken by a boxing coach as they are when your sifu tells you to ‘eat bitter.’

stuart b.

23

chang style novice,

exactly. nicely said.

stuart b.

24

He He, these threads crack me up! Kilik, Sho, I am a CMA guy but I have a suggestion for you. If you feel boxing has no depth, I suggest taking a week or two to study with a boxer. Boxing may appear simple, but it has plenty of depth, and as Ap put it, soul. The technical qualities of boxing are excellent. some may say that its fighting strategy isnt all encompassing but it is a sport after all. Could you use it for self defense? Sure, a good boxer has a pretty good chance of defending himself, especially if you realize very few fights get past the first few blows.
I agree that forms have thier place, they codify, the develope, the strengthen. Boxer dont have odd stances they stand in for hours at a time but they have dynamic drills, and other training tools. My wingchun recquires forms, not just to codify, but to teach my body to natural assume an elbows in posture, or a straight spine, or an alignment of joints. You wont see me pulling the ‘Karate Kid’ and running through SLT at the beginning of a fight, but now when I punch, my elbows tend to align towards my center line, my structure tends more towards what I have been training it for.

25

red5angel,

i think that’s the most compelling argument i’ve heard for forms in a while (not that i was railing against them in the first place). to train your body to dynamically assume postures and structures that are important to your style. makes perfect sense. i just don’t usually hear it expressed that well.

stuart b.

26

Thanks Ap! I think for some MA it is absolutley necessary for that sort of developement, for others maybe not so important. I think like any other ingredient, like sparring, athletic training(including wieghts and running, and whatever else as supplemental training) it has its place. The old argument is that it doesn’t make any sense to use them since you cat use them in a fight but the important thing is that you can use parts of them and some of them just arent naturally reflexive or natural posture! I can honestly say that before wing chun I never took the yueng ma stance naturally! LOL!

27

I agree Ap, very succint.

Sho-lol at your ignorance about boxing. I’m not going to waste my time trying to educate you about boxing, I will leave that to more patient people like Apoweyn.

But from your previous posts on this forum, I would never have guessed that you would disparage an art that you have no experience of.

Its funny but CMA take so much crap from ignorant MMA types that I would have thought most of them would have a more open mind, but no, on this forum and others I repeatedly see opinions like yours. Terrible.

And usually the people that say that boxing has no depth and wouldn’t defeat Kungfu because of Kungfu’s variety of weapons are the people least likely to get in a ring and prove it.

Anyway, back to forms…

28

cheers scotty.

stuart

29

I think it’s important to keep in mind that, generally, forms were created in times of relative peace and/or seclusion. Times when masters sought not to defeat the enemy, but to formulate a pattern for transmission, meditation, and the development of different strengths. It is the truth relfected off of the mirror of their souls.

Here’s a question..should forms remain constant? Or should forms be fluid, ever changing as student after studies, digests, unlearns, and recreates his/her art? Is that not what Ap is doing when he creates his new drills? Shouldn’t forms follow the same rule? Or instead do we want to preserve the transmission of the original master? Is that even truely possible? Does it contradict the ultimate goal of martial arts?

Very intersting…thoughts?

30

that’s a great question, shaolinboxer.

and it’s a tough one to answer because the answer is only going to be as good as the person in question. at what point do you have enough insight on your style that you can start making meaningful and beneficial changes to the forms?

i have a friend whose instructor modified their tangsoodo forms. the front stance-reverse punch maneuvers were changed so that the heel now turns and comes off of the floor, as it might if you were boxing or sparring.

it definitely comes down to level of understanding. but it also comes down to priority, i suppose. do you want to preserve precisely what you learned? or do you feel that what you want to pass on is a little different? if so, are you now doing something fundamentally different? is it no longer ‘original style X’?

stuart b.

31

Shaloinboxer - I think in your personal search for kung fu, you may at some point become proficient enough to make your own forms, but should you try to teach them to others? Maybe after some serious evaluation, but then what might get lost? If you stop trianing the old forms because you feel yours are better, will you loose some of that ‘soul’ of the art? An important key somewhere? I think for people in the youth of thier search the traditional forms are good. For those who start to get a little long in the tooth, playing around isnt such a bad idea but the things you come up with should be evaluated with a critical eye to determine if they are worth the work and effort.

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Where did all those da*n worms go?

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My war is going well. Research and developement has come up with a way to protect apples from worms, unfortunately it turns out the human body cannot digest ‘aluminum’. We are currently looking in the direction of plastics, our current edible underwear research has shown that most worm species are repelled by edible underwear, before being worn of course.
On the front, I have yet to locate the worm cell hiding in my refrigerator and it seems their activities have died down a tad. I have a feeling they are working up a plan to strike en masse and so am preparing for a long and hard siege of the fruit cripser by booby trapping. Unfortunately my wife was the first victim of said booby trap and is now watching me like a hawk…hmmmmm, she could have converted over…

You will have to understand I am fighting a war on two fronts since I declared WAR on JWTaylors MOM. My resources are effectively divided

34

One place that forms and kata have for the most part become less than optimum is as encyclopedias of a styles advanced techniques. These days we have print and video to store these on.

35

Beat them at their own game.

If I do something that is Kung-Fuy, and was to match against a boxer, I would not use knees or kicks…

If I do something Kung-Fuy, and was to match against a Tae Kwon Do-er I would use active blocking and avoidance and removing their legs to infer make your kicks count if you use them-- (choose what you’re doing and stick with it (at least to a point)stand, kick, or learn to stand while you kick.).

…a Muay Thai-er, Rush jab to the face, elbow/knee blocks and folded strikes…

Starting this, I was looking to say that I would do as the opponent. This does presume that my comprehension is great. It Is. When I thought about the Tae Kwon Do-er I saw them use kicks as jabs and me not catching the necessary timing to recover. And if they were persistant they could overwhelm me. No striking~ matters if I can’t match my timing appropriately. And I would have liked to beat the Tae Kwon Do-er with kicks. While I have the minutest of kicking ability [understatement], I might not be competant enough in their use to out match a Tae Kwon Do-er.

So (needle and thread), to see who you are/ how good you are play using the stereotypicaly key tools of the opponent. And losing can be winning. Because you realize your holes and now can look to fill them. Where you are to educate the other person and you can’t do that by losing, recognize their attempts, thwart them. Then with a slight disregard for their attempts, perhaps this would indicate that there might be more than they thought of to approach being a semblance of good.

36

Rogue, I disagree, ever been to a kwoon/dojo that teaches from a video? Ever tried learning from a video? You odnt get the subtleties of the form or technique from video. Ever practiced something while someone was explaining it to you, and although it feels right, they keep making you do it just a little differently? It doesnt feel right but eventually it gets to feel right, because of the form…

37

Ap.

To win a fight you only need one weapon, true. but consider this.

Kick a Boxer: Longer range and reach, more powerful strikes

Box a Kicker: Wait for an opening and shoot insided rendering legs useless. Faster techniques and generally more precise.

Kickbox a grappler: wait for the lunge, spring backwards or sideways, striking with feet or fists.

grapple a kickboxer: wait for an opening, or learn to make an opening, get in close bind the legs and arms from moving, for these are his best assets go to ground and mount, or stay on feet, there are different schools of thought for this, as many of you know.

I am not in any way saying that boxers are not proficient fighters, Im sure there are many boxers out there that can clean my clock, but that wasn’t my point. My point is that MA, CMA especially, train in all the above aspects, and more, such as force absorbtion and redirection(which is just physics..energy can’t be destroyed, only redirected. When you punch a guy and he performs a strong block, he is absorbing the blow through his arm, and consequently into his body. Some train to deflect and pluck in addition to blocking. Which is to flow your arm around the opponents and pull it to your center using the waist as a tourniquet. The force of the opponents punch then works against him as you can work him into throws, joint locks, or just issue a strike of your own using the opponents power.) Also, some train to begin a strike in the feet, bring the power to the legs, up through the waist, into the stomache, through the chest , into the arm, and finally into the fist. This, essentially, makes punching an act of the entire body rather than a movement of the shoulders, or even the waist. Now I have seen some boxers do this, but most do not, they have a static stance, especially the heavyweights. So yes, you only need one weapon to win. But chances are, one with a bigger arsenal will have what it takes to neutralize a boxer of the same skill and athleticism.

Oh and Ap. In the future, please do not discount my opinions or experiences without providing some sort of intellectual feedback…:wink:

Gabriel

38

scotty1,

I know that I sounded very childish, ignorant and very forthcoming in my post and I agree that boxing is also an art such as anything else, like Chinese martial arts. However, I think that boxing has no pre-determined depth which is taught by the coach. In boxing you have to go in depth by yourself, in fact it is quite the same in eastern martial arts too that you have to be independent and understand yourself, but you have masters who aid you in your progress. I’m not saying that boxing is completely different in this case, but the same depth is not provided - you have to seek it yourself. Very often in eastern martial arts various religions influence the art itself and the way, such as the Taoist school of Taijiquan which means that you can study Taoism outside the MA school which provides even more depth and greater understading of Taijiquan as a way of life connected to Taoism.

I don’t want to sound like a troll declaring that boxing is all bad and that there’s no depth, but I hope you try to understand my point.

39

gabriel,

“Oh and Ap. In the future, please do not discount my opinions or experiences without providing some sort of intellectual feedback”

i prefer not to offer feedback until i’ve clarified your stance. and i did that by asking a question. it wasn’t designed to discount your opinion. it was designed to hear more of it, so i don’t go off half ****ed and discount an opinion i don’t understand well enough. in the future, please give me the benefit of the doubt. :wink:

“My point is that MA, CMA especially, train in all the above aspects, and more, such as force absorbtion and redirection(which is just physics..energy can’t be destroyed, only redirected.”

boxers also train in these things to a degree (rolling with the punch, parrying, etc.) but i agree that this isn’t really the point.

“So yes, you only need one weapon to win. But chances are, one with a bigger arsenal will have what it takes to neutralize a boxer of the same skill and athleticism.”

well, that’s not what you said the first time though. you said that two individuals put into their respective disciplines for the same length of time would result in the martial artist winning. (at least, i think that’s what you said.) now, if your argument is that the martial artist has far more tools, but has been training for the same length of time, then it follows that he has put in less time on each of those tools than the boxer has on each of his. and i’m suggesting that the boxer’s comfort and skill with his finite skills are not outclassed by the breadth of the martial artist’s skills. each only need land a handful of techniques.

so, my point is not that the boxer would win. only that the equation is far less simplistic than ‘more techniques = victory.’ if i’m up against a boxer with good footwork and a good jab cross combination, there’s every chance that i’m going to get knocked out before the breadth of my knowledge does me any good. there’s also a chance that it will save my bacon.

ultimately, it’s the statement of absolutes that i have a problem with. obviously, it’s your opinion, and there’s no contesting that. i can’t tell you that you’re flat out wrong. but my own opinion is that the statement was oversimplified. that’s all.

no offence intended.

stuart b.

p.s. heavyweight boxers may not punch from their legs as you suggest, but from my experience with boxing, the discipline itself does advocate that very thing.

40

Gabriel - I thnk Ap has it right, you were speaking in what seemed to be absolutism. I would also suggest that before you assume someone else is discounting your opinions you seek to clarify as Ap was doing. This medium is often hard to communicate in but once out get to know the place you will find that guys like Apoweyn are nothing but respectful and considerate, even when disagreeing with an opinion someone else might share.
There are a few people on this site that offer some real insight and some real input. As you will come to find out the rest are here to either make friends and talk or troll. Watch how others talk and how others approach a subject before you make charater judgements as that will only caus you a loss of respect in the eys of those here who might have some jewel you are looking for.