http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PlEkvxhtZwc
thoughts?
you can show someone all day “theory” “philosophy”, etc. Until you put it into application and the person see’s it being used in resistance environment is when the “light” bulb will come on. I’ve always been of the mind set, “I will show you techniques, then I will show you them used in resistance”
Hey at least they are using boxing gloves, I guess it’s a start.
Check out Chen Zhonghua’s clips if you want to see some Taiji applications:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DADYbpj4oMw&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZ1OOPdkiPs&feature=related
(Not so sure about the kicks in that vid)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6lSGiuyhB4&feature=related
EO
Check out Chen Zhonghua’s clips if you want to see some Taiji applications:
they would be more along the lines of demo’s than anything else.
none of them keep their hands up or have a actual fighting stance, not even in a demo
[QUOTE=Eric Olson;1053033]Check out Chen Zhonghua’s clips if you want to see some Taiji applications:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DADYbpj4oMw&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZ1OOPdkiPs&feature=related
(Not so sure about the kicks in that vid)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6lSGiuyhB4&feature=related
EO[/QUOTE]
Lame…lame
This is much more realistic and what really happens when you have actual resisting opponents:
[QUOTE=Knifefighter;1053044]This is much more realistic and what really happens when you have actual resisting opponents:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U76sVEStkFo[/QUOTE]
not exactly clean, but more lessony in scope.
more bridge strength is more interesting to watch because it requires more skill, strength and ability to sense and move.
shoulder to shoulder becomes a plain old shoving match.
William CC Chen’s kids Max and Tiffany fight full contact, or used to anyways.
in kung fu demos lots of people keep their hands down and just stand there, have no fighting stance and have their student do a lunge punch. watch out for those people
[QUOTE=David Jamieson;1053048]not exactly clean, but more lessony in scope.
more bridge strength is more interesting to watch because it requires more skill, strength and ability to sense and move.
shoulder to shoulder becomes a plain old shoving match.[/QUOTE]
Clean? Trying to actually manipulate an opponent is rarely “clean”. Wrestling, judo, sambo, resisting Tai Chi… none of it will look “clean” because that’s the way it happens when people actually resist.
[QUOTE=David Jamieson;1053048]not exactly clean, but more lessony in scope.
more bridge strength is more interesting to watch because it requires more skill, strength and ability to sense and move.
shoulder to shoulder becomes a plain old shoving match.[/QUOTE]
That is what push hands is David. Most of the crap on youtube was meant to be beginner level to teach you how to uproot for a throw eventually.
These gentlemen are the true push hands champions. They would go through all tai chi people like a knife through butter.
[QUOTE=MysteriousPower;1053060]That is what push hands is David. Most of the crap on youtube was meant to be beginner level to teach you how to uproot for a throw eventually.
These gentlemen are the true push hands champions. They would go through all tai chi people like a knife through butter.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CEe-UIvftUg[/QUOTE]
This 
Well, the first clip was a “demo” too only the guy had boxing gloves on and the instructor was punching…so that somehow made it something different?
In my EXPERIENCE practicing applications with high level Taiji practitioners, the more you “resist” the worse it gets for you. (I’d put Chen Zhonghua in that category of high level practitioners.)
Maybe someone could recount how they practiced applications with someone at the level of Chen Zhonghua and got the upper hand through hard resistance…
The funny thing is I see a lot of the same skills in Judo, Shuai Chiao and BJJ. It’s not about resisting…it’s about listening to the opponent and finding the right opportunity to lock, strike or throw.
EO
[QUOTE=Eric Olson;1053066]Well, the first clip was a “demo” too only the guy had boxing gloves on and the instructor was punching…so that somehow made it something different? [/QUOTE]
Nope, it was all just as unrealistic.
.
In my EXPERIENCE practicing applications with high level Taiji practitioners, the more you “resist” the worse it gets for you. (I’d put Chen Zhonghua in that category of high level practitioners.)
Maybe someone could recount how they practiced applications with someone at the level of Chen Zhonghua and got the upper hand through hard resistance…
The funny thing is I see a lot of the same skills in Judo, Shuai Chiao and BJJ. It’s not about resisting…it’s about listening to the opponent and finding the right opportunity to lock, strike or throw.
Unless a “high level” Taji practioner is training and competing pretty much the way you saw in the clip I posted, they will never reach the skill level of those in actual competitive grappling sports.
[QUOTE=Knifefighter;1053057]Clean? Trying to actually manipulate an opponent is rarely “clean”. Wrestling, judo, sambo, resisting Tai Chi… none of it will look “clean” because that’s the way it happens when people actually resist.[/QUOTE]
Mmmm, maybe you are not understanding what I am saying and you are compounding it with teh view from the glasses that are your experience. The resistance is fine, I don’t have an issue with it. What’s weak in those guys is their bridges and their structure. It is being broken down into more of a sumo wrestler thing and it shouldn’t. you can have and maintain bridges against resistance and against the changes in forces placed upon you provided you have trained to that end. It is one or the other and not both.
[QUOTE=MysteriousPower;1053060]That is what push hands is David. Most of the crap on youtube was meant to be beginner level to teach you how to uproot for a throw eventually.
These gentlemen are the true push hands champions. They would go through all tai chi people like a knife through butter.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CEe-UIvftUg[/QUOTE]
If you think that is good Push Hands, you are entitled to your opinion. I don’t think it shows correct structure and I see it as a degradation of the exercise in favour of ??? lol.
sumo is not push hands. don’t confuse one for the other. Bridges and maintainability of them is key to the practice.
[QUOTE=Eric Olson;1053066]Well, the first clip was a “demo” too only the guy had boxing gloves on and the instructor was punching…so that somehow made it something different?
In my EXPERIENCE practicing applications with high level Taiji practitioners, the more you “resist” the worse it gets for you. (I’d put Chen Zhonghua in that category of high level practitioners.)
Maybe someone could recount how they practiced applications with someone at the level of Chen Zhonghua and got the upper hand through hard resistance…
The funny thing is I see a lot of the same skills in Judo, Shuai Chiao and BJJ. It’s not about resisting…it’s about listening to the opponent and finding the right opportunity to lock, strike or throw.
EO[/QUOTE]
The more you resist the more worse it gets for you? That only happens when the student is being nice and does not want to make the teacher look bad. I guarantee you that, if that sumo guy resisted, the tai chi guy would be knocked over.
You see the same SKILLS coming out of shuai jiao, judo, etc because that is what skill looks like. You see CRAP from the push hands camps as well. No one in their right minds would refer to that as skill.
ok, we get it that you guys hate tcma and it’s practices. so what’s your goal here at KFM?
please explain that angle for us kung fu idiots?
thanks.
[QUOTE=David Jamieson;1053069]Mmmm, maybe you are not understanding what I am saying and you are compounding it with teh view from the glasses that are your experience. The resistance is fine, I don’t have an issue with it. What’s weak in those guys is their bridges and their structure. It is being broken down into more of a sumo wrestler thing and it shouldn’t. you can have and maintain bridges against resistance and against the changes in forces placed upon you provided you have trained to that end. It is one or the other and not both.
If you think that is good Push Hands, you are entitled to your opinion. I don’t think it shows correct structure and I see it as a degradation of the exercise in favour of ??? lol.
sumo is not push hands. don’t confuse one for the other. Bridges and maintainability of them is key to the practice.[/QUOTE]
Do you have correct structure? That sumo guy would destroy your structure and the structure of your teacher’s teacher. And then he would celebrate by eating while you go back to doing the tai chi form slowly. I guess what I am trying to say is that eating is better training than forms.
[QUOTE=David Jamieson;1053069]Mmmm, maybe you are not understanding what I am saying and you are compounding it with teh view from the glasses that are your experience. The resistance is fine, I don’t have an issue with it. What’s weak in those guys is their bridges and their structure. It is being broken down into more of a sumo wrestler thing and it shouldn’t. you can have and maintain bridges against resistance and against the changes in forces placed upon you provided you have trained to that end. It is one or the other and not both.
If you think that is good Push Hands, you are entitled to your opinion. I don’t think it shows correct structure and I see it as a degradation of the exercise in favour of ??? lol.
sumo is not push hands. don’t confuse one for the other. Bridges and maintainability of them is key to the practice.[/QUOTE]
Actually, if you want to see what real, functional structure looks like, look to the elite, world-class grappling athletes. To get to that level, they have to have good structure.