[QUOTE=Knifefighter;1053075]Actually, if you want to see what real, functional structure looks like, look to the elite, world-class grappling athletes. To get to that level, they have to have good structure.[/QUOTE]
Or even olympic power lifters
ok, so…uh, why bother with it then? Why don’t you just stick to your lifting and wrestling.
I’m stumped as to why you drop these threads on some thin pretext and then use them to catapult yourselves into your anti-kung fu positions over and over again.
please explain?
[QUOTE=David Jamieson;1053084]ok, so…uh, why bother with it then? Why don’t you just stick to your lifting and wrestling.
I’m stumped as to why you drop these threads on some thin pretext and then use them to catapult yourselves into your anti-kung fu positions over and over again.
please explain?[/QUOTE]
I do it to see if I can get people like you to admit bs when you see it. But you are in denial.
Quit complaining and just go with it.
My good friend won Nick Scrima’s push hand event and just won a silver in Taiwan at the world championships. I’ve been hosting his push hands team for over a year and we do a LOT of cross training
Good taiji, IE the real application of Taiji, is Shuai Jiao. Shuai Jiao is wrestling.
The peculiararities of the push hand format have changed what they practice and their understanding. IE Nick Scrima opened up the rules to include leg attacks and suddenly my friend and his team we absorbing single and double leg attacks into their arsenal
I prefer a lot of neck ties, which are illegal in Taiji Push hands, I have told my friend that this greatly changes the game, but we’ve found things that do work
In Chen village mainland china, NONE of those restrictions exist
[QUOTE=lkfmdc;1053092]My good friend won Nick Scrima’s push hand event and just won a silver in Taiwan at the world championships. I’ve been hosting his push hands team for over a year and we do a LOT of cross training
Good taiji, IE the real application of Taiji, is Shuai Jiao. Shuai Jiao is wrestling.
The peculiararities of the push hand format have changed what they practice and their understanding. IE Nick Scrima opened up the rules to include leg attacks and suddenly my friend and his team we absorbing single and double leg attacks into their arsenal
I prefer a lot of neck ties, which are illegal in Taiji Push hands, I have told my friend that this greatly changes the game, but we’ve found things that do work
In Chen village mainland china, NONE of those restrictions exist[/QUOTE]
See, now I understand this, what is being said here.
I agree, leg attacks and going for any joint (neck/shoulder/elbow/wrist/waist/knee/ankle) should be allowable and ultimately, throws would be great.
I think takedowns are already part of it as you can do leg sweeps etc etc.
@MP, do some push hands, then come back and tell us what you know.
lkfmdc
Good taiji, IE the real application of Taiji, is Shuai Jiao. Shuai Jiao is wrestling
.
Can you elebortate on this? Im confused why you said taji application is shuai Jiao. I do Wu style with application as well as having shuai Jiao in our system of mantis and I cannot find the comnnetion you are making in reguards to this throwing art.
[QUOTE=David Jamieson;1053105]See, now I understand this, what is being said here.
I agree, leg attacks and going for any joint (neck/shoulder/elbow/wrist/waist/knee/ankle) should be allowable and ultimately, throws would be great.
I think takedowns are already part of it as you can do leg sweeps etc etc.
@MP, do some push hands, then come back and tell us what you know.[/QUOTE]
In Taiwan you can not grab the neck or do “leg attacks” like single and double legs, but you can certainly throw. What wrestlers call the “whizzer” is used a lot
The US format, I have no idea where it came from, it is the most restrictive and most unrealistic
Nick Scrima is trying to make it more “extreme” ie more open, I think it’s a good thing
Chen Village is the wild west, it’s free style wrestling but without the level change deep penetration. I think that goes back to the “combat” idea
[QUOTE=EarthDragon;1053106]lkfmdc
.
Can you elebortate on this? Im confused why you said taji application is shuai Jiao. I do Wu style with application as well as having shuai Jiao in our system of mantis and I cannot find the comnnetion you are making in reguards to this throwing art.[/QUOTE]
Dave can answer on his own, but for me Tai Chi is a system of throws, take downs and holds more than it is a boxing system.
I practice Yang and find that it makes sense in context to grabs/holds and releases.
It doesn’t make sense as a boxing style and in fact, has almost zero pugilistic stuff in it.
[QUOTE=David Jamieson;1053112]Dave can answer on his own, but for me Tai Chi is a system of throws, take downs and holds more than it is a boxing system.
I practice Yang and find that it makes sense in context to grabs/holds and releases.
It doesn’t make sense as a boxing style and in fact, has almost zero pugilistic stuff in it.[/QUOTE]
Yep, you got it. Although the Chen stuff has more striking, with a lot of shoulder and elbow strikes…but in general I think Taiji is weaker in the area of “boxing” as we think of it. I’ll stick with my CLF for that…at least until I’m too old.
EO
We allow grips, neck cranks, leg techs, but taixu isn’t in the main of taiji.
Not to be a taiji nuthugger but you guys know that there are TWO forms in Taiji right?
Just saying that Taiji may not be as much of a grappling system as you may think.
most of the techniques in the form are punching
wing chun has sticky hands too, i guess wing chun must be a grappling system
its not uncommon for karate guys to discover secret throws in their kata after they learn 2 moth of judo.
most of the wrestling people do at push hands competitions have no name or even concept in taijiquan. because it comes from shuai jiao. taijiquan has like total of 5 throws
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1053266]Not to be a taiji nuthugger but you guys know that there are TWO forms in Taiji right?
Just saying that Taiji may not be as much of a grappling system as you may think.[/QUOTE]
The real taiji would retract its nuts as you tried to hug them.
[QUOTE=KC Elbows;1053328]The real taiji would retract its nuts as you tried to hug them.[/QUOTE]
There’s a mental picture !
[QUOTE=Eric Olson;1053066] the more you “resist” the worse it gets for you.[/QUOTE]
Agree 100% there. The problem is most Taiji guys don’t train 100% resistence. When 2 Taiji guys are doing PH, None of them want to commit 100% of their force.
The worse opponent is the opponent that just running around you and don’t want to commit on anything. The more that your opponent resists, the easier it will be for you to do your stuff. In the striking art, if your opponent comes in toward you with full force, you may just put your fist in front of his face, and he will run uinto your fist and knock himself out (head on collusion). In the throwing art, the harder that your opponent resists, the easier for you to change direction, borrow his force, and take him down the other direction (rear end collusion).
Old Chinese saying said, “You throw your opponent the direction that he wants to fall.” It’s always good to have “counter force” to borrow in both striking art and throwing art.
The reason that Anthony Hopkins could kill that bear in “The Edge” movie because that bear ran toward him (head on colussion). There is no way that he could kill that bear without being able to borrow the force from that bear. If that bear just running around him uncommitted, he would be dead meat in that movie.
He also is deadly with a ventriloquist dummy, letting the qi reach the tip of the dummy’s head as he kills Burgess Meredith in Magic.
I see a lot of things wrong with this thead. Taijiquan has wrestling, taijiquan has Qinna, Taijiquan has strikes and kicks…
Wudang has a lot of palm strikes and punches and kicks. It combines Taijiquan, Xinyi, Bagua, and Wudang Kung fu. It also has wrestling and Qinna. It has all 4 aspects.
Chen and yang has a lot of strikes and elbows and kicks. The movement Peng itself is a strike, a back hand or the wet towel technique. Yang I would say would have more wrestling while Chen is more striking, but they both have punches and kicks and elbows. Single whip alone, from any style has bumps, elbows, backhands, palmstrikes, and crane beaks for striking… But it has all 4 aspects.
Sun has a lot of breaks and grappling as well as punches and kicks, but mostly breaks and grappling, as it has bagua in the hands and Xinyi in the feet. But it does have all 4 aspects.
Taijiquan is NOT mostly grappling. It has all 4 of the above applications, if not it would not be considered a complete Martial Art… If you dont know the full application of the form, are you practicing Traditional Taijiquan or the wushu version of Taijiquan for sport?
[QUOTE=tiaji1983;1053399]Taijiquan has strikes and kicks… [/QUOTE]
When was the last time that we saw a Taiji master used his “advance hammer”, “bend bow and shoot tiger”, or “twin peaks to the ears” and knock his opponent down? All the clips that we have seen so far are push, push, and still push.
those are all wrestling and qina techniques. its all in push hands. tai chi is all about the push hands. push hands is fighting.
[QUOTE=MysteriousPower;1053060]That is what push hands is David. Most of the crap on youtube was meant to be beginner level to teach you how to uproot for a throw eventually.
These gentlemen are the true push hands champions. They would go through all tai chi people like a knife through butter.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CEe-UIvftUg[/QUOTE]
Before you posted this video, I was about to say all these “practical” taichi videos look like amateur sumo fights. Which of course a sumo would own. So I don’t really think what they’re doing is practical in a fight. A thug will come at you with fast flurry of punches.
And an experienced fighter, will use even stronger punches, kicks, elbows etc. So push hands is just like sumo, not really practical to knock someone out.