You can get some great ideas by checking out the workout logs of Andrew S. on the main forum. (Combine his; education, practical experience, and the amount of research he’s done specifically into those areas, and you’re hard pressed to find a better resource for valid information.)
ok basically i think the most important thing is to do with how your energy systems are conditioned (eg oxidative, glycotic, phosphagen). so no point going for 10 mile jogs etc. you need to work out specifically how you think your fights are going to be, eg round length and what your workload is during each round. so at my mma club if someones buiding up to a thai bxoing fight (3 min rounds) they’ll do everything in 3 minute rounds (eg. 5 x 3 min rounds on pads) and that should go for your running etc too. for an mma fight (5 min rounds) again do say 3 x 5 min rounds. so it really depends on what sort of fight your entering etc. one really good thing to do is sprint work or intervals, so for 5 minute rounds do jog for 10s, sprint for 10s, sprawls for 10s. thats a pretty typical mma fight routine. also its really important to use exactly the same rest intervals as your competition, and something else we do is make sure the last 30s of each round you work as hard as possible, eg chain punch solid the last 30s or something.
again really it depends on what sort of comp your doing and your game…
strength, speed and technique are different. for strength you really want weights for best results etc but the above is good for your base fight conditioning. its what my mma club do anyway and has got results so…
ps if you do the sprint intervals eg several 5 minute rounds of 20s jog-10s sprint or whatever dont do too many times a week (probably 2x if your an am) as youll overtrain and mess yourself up.
As others have said, it depends of the format of comp, Jeff.
In our club, we do amatuer MT matches which are 3x2 minute rounds or 3x3 minute rounds. A single match not tournament. You need an even mix of strength and endurance. Long jogs can help due to the amount of nerves you have in the hours before the fight which can tire you out. But the majority would be rounds of padwork, bagwork and sparring.
If you were doing a TKD tournament, it would be 3x3 minute rounds per match and most times you can have up to 5 or 6 matches in a tournament on a single day. You need some serious endurance and speed work for it but a lot of strength and power is not required.
thanks for the kind words, but I’d say the weakest part of my training approach is my conditioning work, partly 'cos I’m not actively training for an event now, and partly 'cos true high intensity conditioning work fries me to the point where I lose the ability to recover and get anything else done afterwards, and generally don’t have the energy after 2-3 other sessions in a day to do it. I tend to get good results when I build energy systems work on top of lots of more mellow recovery-style GPP, then spar on top of that. This follows the classic GPP->SPP-> actual sport model.
A really good line from Adam Singer- conditioning should be directed to both the parameters of the event and the style of the individual fighter. Hence, an ‘explode, rest, explode, rest’ sort of fighter should base their conditioning on somewhat different patterns than someone who’s always going, or, for instance, a grappler who basically plays python.
A few additional comments-
GPP-
basic conditioning to raise work capacity and help you recover from other workouts. I try to do my GPP so it works similar things to my strength or speed sessions, aiding recovery, and try to get some work on muscular imbalances and mobility out of it at the same time. I tend to do better with these sorts of workouts if they don’t have any ‘oh dear lord not tonight’ factor- leaving that to SPP sorts of things.
SPP-
I throw energy system work under this category- lactic acid training, tabata intervals, bar complexes working similar force/time characteristics to the activity you seek to prepare for, as well as sport-specific drills done for conditioing purposes (ideally simple skills that won’t decay under fatigue easily). With a larger group, isolation sparring working specific stuff for time would fit nicely under this heading).
So, in response to the initial post, before coming up with a program for this guy you might want to think about:
1). His strength and speed development (does he need work for strength or speed)
2). Injury prevention- i.e. if he’s got a bad shoulder, then maybe jerks at a high % rm1 aren’t a good exercise to select.
3). Characteristics of the event
4). The time he has available
5). His characteristics as a fighter - what tempo is he good at and how to play to that.
Striker and Edmund,
Right now he’s building his endurance punching for 3 minutes, kicking for 3 minutes and elbows and knees for 3 minutes with no break in between so he’s going full out for 9 minutes straight (I actually think he’s doing almost 6 minutes of punching but not sure)
I’ll pass on what you guys said though.
Andrew S
I can’t seem to find the workout logs that lawrence was talking about. Could you point them out to me?
Thanks
Ghostofwingchun
Sparring is a definite, but there are things you can build up outside of the ring or sparring session. The areas of where he should concentrate on will be brought out during those sparring sessions.
This guy I’m talking about is pretty stong, so in your opinions, would you keep building on that strength or let the strength training slide a bit and work more on endurance to be more well rounded. The strength thing is only based on what I’ve seen in class. I know that he was power lifiting for a while but I have no idea what kind of weight he was lifting.
Mr. Bussey I am wondering . . . if condition is individual thing . . . how can there be cookie cutter approach to fit your needs? I am thinking that if person is sparring . . . regularly . . . they will see if they need extra work . . . if they need to work on wind because they become winded in sparring . . . if they need to work on muscular endurance because they tire in sparring . . . or whatever . . . then they can come up with supplement exercise to suit them . . . this is my thinking at moment.
Ghost
I agree there isn’t a template that’s out there, that if everyone follows it then you’re good to go.
I’m just wondering what people are doing to get/keep themselves in shape for that. If there’s a push-up program that develops strength I’d like to hear about it, if there’s certain excercises for explosive power, I’d like to hear about them as well. Then he can work on building up his weaknesses by maybe doing some of those routines.
Mr. Bussey I think you indirectly refer to interesting issue . . . is person getting what they need to reach their goals from their training in the first place? I am thinking that if developing into really good wc fighter is person’s goal . . . and I am not saying everyone should have this goal mind you . . . are they training with person or group that can truly help them reach goal . . . if they are then I am thinking individual conditioning would be part of training already . . . just like conditioning is part of thai boxer’s training . . .how does thai boxer train to get into shape to fight . . . this is what his training is for . . . lol . . . there is no supplement needed by thai boxer . . . I am thinking if person needs to do supplement then proper training is lacking . . . those things should already be part of training. . . so it may be worth finding group that already trains to fight and join it . . . do you see what I mean?
your point seems to be that thai boxers (and other combat athletes) have conditioning built into their practice. This is valid- training yourself into shape with your sport works, but is most effective for beginning athletes- as you get more flight time, you get more efficient, and just performing your chosen activity will produce lower demands on you, lessening the conditioning effect. Additionally, skills performed under conditions of extreme fatigue can recruit different motor pathways which are less efficient, essentially teaching you do things wrong and sloppily and decaying your technique, hence only the most basic motor skills from said chosen sport should be used if you choose to train this way, using a limited rep range, changing what is being used before decay sets in.
Additionally, certain qualities are most rapidly and efficiently if not solely developed by other training modalites. Speed, agility, joint mobility, limit strength, speed-strength- all of these things can be specifically developed much more efficiently by various programs, as contrasted with just roadwork, bagwork, pads, and sparring. This approach has done very well for a number of modern fighters- Evander Hollyfield, Randy Couture, and Frank Shamrock being notable examples of people notorious for using cutting edge conditioning methods and crediting those methods with their successes.
Yeah we all are individuals, but we are all still human, basically the same. What works in general for most athletes will work well for you. The key to it is to tweak it specifically for you when you have the correct knowledge with it. For example when weight lifting, depending on what you want to accomplish with it, you find a routine from some source then follow it, eventually you will find out a few things. Which muscles build faster than others, what muscles are naturally stronger than others, what exercises work better than others for a particular muscle group, how much time between sets works best for you, and so on…This is the tweaking part of the program and it takes a little time to accomplish this.
For fighting conditioning, of course performing the task it self would be recommended, but fighting all the time in training could lead to injuries, so there has to be supplemental exercises that can replace things for safety purposes. I’m no expert on this subject as I have never really trained someone for a competition, so I would ask around or find some information about the subject and then build up a program from their for my fighter.
Andrew thank you so much for insightful and knowledgeable reply! As I am thinking of it . . . training in combative arts for fighters involves skill and conditioning together . . . as they are not really separate things . . . for example develop great thai kick involves not just learning it and knowing how to do it but kicking the thai bag and thai pads thousands and thousands of times . . . this gives conditioning and skill. . . while squat or something may make leg stronger it won’t make thai kick better . . . doing thai kick will only do that . . . there is no short cut . . . and I am thinking that good fight training involves program that gives conditioning and skill simulaneously. I do agree with you one hundred percent about Hollyfield Couture and Shamrock . . . but I am thinking they were already top notch when they used progams you talk about . . . and at elite level a one percent gain can make huge difference in performance . . . these programs did not get them to elite level though . . . regular boxing training got Hollyfield there . . . and he continued to do regular boxing training once elite . . . I am not suggesting your ideas do not have merit . . . they do as evidence shows and I appreciate them . . . I am only trying to explain that I am thinking that generally a good training program for fighter will necessarily involve conditioning they need . . . this is all.
“This guy I’m talking about is pretty stong, so in your opinions, would you keep building on that strength or let the strength training slide a bit and work more on endurance to be more well rounded. The strength thing is only based on what I’ve seen in class. I know that he was power lifiting for a while but I have no idea what kind of weight he was lifting.” (Jeff Bussey)
***LET THE STRENGTH TRAINING slide down to things like pushups, situps, Hindu squats, chin ups, pull ups, back(neck) bridges, etc…maybe no more than say 20-30 minutes per day for the total package (at least 4 days per week)…while seriously increasing his endurance training…which can be done in any number of ways; but imo, should result in at least 30 minutes per day - virtually if not literally every day - wherein whatever aerobic he’s doing results in actual and literal sweating.
And lots of stretching from head-to-toe.
Add to this lots of work on punching, kicking, footwork, fighting strategy and technique, sparring, and rolling…
Yes, when learning the Thai kick, you kick thousands of times to absorb the thing. As the skill increases less stress is placed on the body, because it has become more efficient doing that movement, when performing the movement once. Yes, I agree there are no short cuts, but supplementary training, like weight lifting has to increase the effectiveness of something, since the body is becoming stronger and more fit. This will reflect in everything you do, but the key is to have the skill already there. Basics and foundation have to be present always. Being a strong fit person alone doesn’t necessarily mean you can fight.
these programs did not get them to elite level though . . . regular boxing training got Hollyfield there . . . and he continued to do regular boxing training once elite . . .
I disagree with this because work out programs are “part” of training and without them, these pro’s would definetly NOT make it to the elite level.
Anyone can be gifted at a sport, but it is the constant training and conditioning that will take them to the next level.
for example develop great thai kick involves not just learning it and knowing how to do it but kicking the thai bag and thai pads thousands and thousands of times . . . this gives conditioning and skill. . . while squat or something may make leg stronger it won’t make thai kick better
If you have already developed a good kick then why would squating NOT make the kick better? If your leg is stronger, you will kick harder- thus making the kick better. Of course, if you only squat and do nothing else to develop a kick then you would be correct in your example.
The key is to supplement the kicking routine with other execises that would help further develop the kick. Same goes with training for a fight, or training to be in fighting condition.
You can just kick and punch the bag and spar all day but eventually your body will adapt to this type of conditioning and the physical gains from this set routine will diminish. So in order to maximize conditioning (which is a paramount importance for a fight) you would need to supplement your normal core routine with some other conditioning routine to shock the system into growth.
If I was very much conditioned and could last the full lenght of a fight say 3-5 min rounds with no problem, but my punches and kicks lacked power then I would need to supplement with some strength training exercises to further develop my power.
