Conditioning is the real deciding factor in a fight.

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
1

THINK about this long and hard fellas…are you getting the conditioning that you need to perform well in a fight?

Even though wing chun capitalizes on using the other persons energy, even though wing chun fights are supposed to last no more then 3 seconds…what if the other person’s skills are higher than the average person and the fight lasts longer then you had hoped? What then?

I haven’t trained HARD since I was full time Muay thai almost ten years ago (when I was 18). I’ve had a full out hiatus from martial arts all together since mid 2001 when I was sent on deployment in the military, and on top of that after returning in 2002 I broke my wrist. (which is still broken to this day after two surgeries…)

Most of you know that I’ve recently taken up my wing chun again at an EBMAS school and today was a big slap in the face in terms of what kind of shape I was in. We started drilling “one step style” the attacker being “style-less” and the defender being wing tsun. The attacker attacks once, defender does some sort of simultaneous attack/defence. Next…the attacker attacks once and the defender does the same thing, and then follows with more techniques (chain punches most of the time). Next…the attacker attacks twice, and the defender unloads as before…and then finally, the attacker attacks over and over and the defender does his wing chun thing. Now of course we’re wearing gloves and mouthpieces…cups if you had em. We did this for 2 minutes rounds (with only a few seconds in between for rest)…for about an hour and a half.

Initially, my hands were fast, precise, and spot on in terms of accuracy. After incorperating sweeps and kicks…I did even better. OBvious hits from chain punching aside, I dropped a few guys with sweeps and caught a couple with some good elbows…(one guy has a nice reminder above his eye not to lean forward into me anymore.) But I’m not afraid to say now that my cardio sucks. It got to the point that I was so tired that I couldnt give a viable attack let alone defense. By then I was basically a muk jong for these guys to pummel with the occasional hit back. Especially when I was TAKEN TO THE GROUND, now I have limited experience in BJJ, but again, I was so tired I couldn’t put up an effective defense, and ended up getting a figure four lock on my arm…(ironically from the same fella I tattooed with my elbow).

Long story short, I’m going to be upping my cardio now…and doing a lot more sparring and drills to exhaustion. I have never been one to get hit in the face very often, and today I was a friggin speed bag. I don’t like it…I’m not used to being on the receiving end. It really ****es me off. All my “proper” techniques…all my sensetivity…all my angles done right, and it all turns to shiet when you don’t have the fuel to sustain it. So let this be a reminder for all you armchair martial artists and “softies” that if you don’t train to fight…you won’t be able to. Time to put up or shut up.

I will try to see if my sifu will allow me to film the training for you guys…but can’t make any guarantees.

2

I’ve believed for quite some time now that the 3 ingredients required for being a successful fighter are:

  1. WILL

  2. CONDITIONING

  3. SKILL

In that order…

Skill (technique) is last on the list. (Athough all three are important).

Paradoxically, however…since I’m now 54 years old…and I do strive to be in real good condition at all times (including cardio)…I find that my cardio endurance nonetheless more often than not -

can’t keep up with someone 20+ years younger and in real good cardio shape. (I might spar all out with someone for about three minutes or so - and then I’ll probably be running out of gas - but they probably won’t be).

So I have to rely heavily on Will and Skill…and concentrate on ending all “encounters” as quickly as I can…which has affected my entire fight philosophy in recent years. (And has also affected my thinking as to exactly what types of techniques and strategies I should concentrate upon developing).

Don’t want to “spar” when I spar…don’t want to get into a Wing Chun “boxing match” when I spar…don’t want to get into a prolonged grappling match when I wrestle…

Just want to successfully end the encounter as quickly as I can.

The video clips I’m going to put up will reflect this.

Don’t get me wrong, though. I’m not a believer in the “three second” Wing Chun fight - or the one punch knockout. If it happens…fine. But I’m not expecting it to happen - and I don’t go looking for the one-punch (or one-kick) knockout.

What I do look for is a quick attempt to begin “controlling” my opponent’s body (whether it be standing or on the ground)…nullifying his potential weapons…and then going in for the finish. (And the better your technique is - the more you can begin to control WHILE striking/kicking, etc.)

And I stop sparring/wrestling when I run out of gas.

Take a rest…and start over.

Don’t see any benefit (and much potential danger) to continue sparring/wrestling competitively when there’s no cardio endurance left.

Occasionally I might push myself when tired (just to see how far I can go before exhaustion) - but it’s very rare.

Took me a long time to see the wisdom in this…(the ego said…“No, I can still go on”).

But the body wasn’t willing.

That’s when you can get injured while training competitively with a partner. (He may not know how vulnerable you really are…and may do something at full speed/power that he would normally expect you to be able to deal with or absorb without too much of a problem - but you can’t this time.)

Got to conserve your energy when it’s running on empty.

3

ofcouse,

Conditiong is the Kung of the Kung fu.

as it said, training in technics doesnt train in Kung, one can do that until old age and everything is an empty training.

4

I have started to add strength and conditioning to my training and it has made a big difference!!!

this is a good site with articles on conditioning for fighting:

http://www.rossboxing.com/thegym.html

5

Re: Conditioning is the real deciding factor in a fight.

Originally posted by Vankuen
[B]THINK about this long and hard fellas…are you getting the conditioning that you need to perform well in a fight?

Even though wing chun capitalizes on using the other persons energy, even though wing chun fights are supposed to last no more then 3 seconds…what if the other person’s skills are higher than the average person and the fight lasts longer then you had hoped? What then?

I haven’t trained HARD since I was full time Muay thai almost ten years ago (when I was 18). I’ve had a full out hiatus from martial arts all together since mid 2001 when I was sent on deployment in the military, and on top of that after returning in 2002 I broke my wrist. (which is still broken to this day after two surgeries…)

Most of you know that I’ve recently taken up my wing chun again at an EBMAS school and today was a big slap in the face in terms of what kind of shape I was in. We started drilling “one step style” the attacker being “style-less” and the defender being wing tsun. The attacker attacks once, defender does some sort of simultaneous attack/defence. Next…the attacker attacks once and the defender does the same thing, and then follows with more techniques (chain punches most of the time). Next…the attacker attacks twice, and the defender unloads as before…and then finally, the attacker attacks over and over and the defender does his wing chun thing. Now of course we’re wearing gloves and mouthpieces…cups if you had em. We did this for 2 minutes rounds (with only a few seconds in between for rest)…for about an hour and a half.

Initially, my hands were fast, precise, and spot on in terms of accuracy. After incorperating sweeps and kicks…I did even better. OBvious hits from chain punching aside, I dropped a few guys with sweeps and caught a couple with some good elbows…(one guy has a nice reminder above his eye not to lean forward into me anymore.) But I’m not afraid to say now that my cardio sucks. It got to the point that I was so tired that I couldnt give a viable attack let alone defense. By then I was basically a muk jong for these guys to pummel with the occasional hit back. Especially when I was TAKEN TO THE GROUND, now I have limited experience in BJJ, but again, I was so tired I couldn’t put up an effective defense, and ended up getting a figure four lock on my arm…(ironically from the same fella I tattooed with my elbow).

Long story short, I’m going to be upping my cardio now…and doing a lot more sparring and drills to exhaustion. I have never been one to get hit in the face very often, and today I was a friggin speed bag. I don’t like it…I’m not used to being on the receiving end. It really ****es me off. All my “proper” techniques…all my sensetivity…all my angles done right, and it all turns to shiet when you don’t have the fuel to sustain it. So let this be a reminder for all you armchair martial artists and “softies” that if you don’t train to fight…you won’t be able to. Time to put up or shut up.

I will try to see if my sifu will allow me to film the training for you guys…but can’t make any guarantees. [/B]

Conditioning is a major factor in a fight as is the ability to punch someone excessively hard and make sure they stay down. they all go hand in hand technical,tactical skill, conditioning speed timing etc most importantly making sure it works in a real fight. good post impressed with Victor not taking it easy sets a good example to the younger lazy people who rest on their laurels…

What conditioning you doing at the mo?

6

Vankuen,

I agree with you – conditioning is critical. It goes back to the old swimming metaphor, one can’t be a good swimmer without being in good condition (it doesn’t matter if you know the backstroke if you gas in seconds). And the training to become a good swimmer, swimming in the pool, puts you in good condition (though as you point out, you can supplement it). This is why you can look at someone and tell they have no fighting skill – soft, out-of-shape, easily winded – regardless of what title they’ve given themselves. Moreover, skill in WCK isn’t something you attain and then have it for life; it’s like any fighting skill, you must maintain it (stay in shape, etc.).

7

Kevin:

Lots of stretching (the entire body)
Hindu pushups
situps
Hindu squats
pull-ups
chin-ups
back bridges
jogging
shadow-boxing
chi gung breathing exercises
curls

8

By your own admission, you were fine at the beginning, it was only after a long time that you got too tired to hit hard and accurately, but wouldn’t a real fight be over by then?

Sure, bearing in mind there is always somebody stronger, faster, better trained, harder than you etc. and you want to be the best you can be, do you not think that there is a point of diminishing returns?

9

conditioning lead to a question of what specific type of mind/body conditioning and the characteristics of the result.

As in the Chinese Martial art, the harder style is not condition thier body similar to the softer style.
The kicker style will condition thier body different then the arms style.
The Kiu Sau style will not condition thier body simillar to the momentum manuval style… list goes on.

That doesnt mean one conditioning is better then other, but there are different type or same type different weight of conditioning to support the style.

This bring back to the Enginee of the Style. Because IMHHO the enginee is the Kung which is directly based on the methodology of the conditioning.

IMHHHO.

As a further example, the Shao Lin’s Yee Jing Jing is condition the body different then the taiJi’s reel silk. Producing different type of power which is suitable for thier style.

Both Choy Lee Fut and White Crane Weng Chun are using “stone lock” as it called Yan Tze Pai or sek so in cantonese. but they do it differently since thier power generation is different.

So, as for WCK, IMHHO, that SLT/SNT set is also a conditioning set. which is different with the Karate’s san chin set ( note that I didnt use the San Chin of White Crane Wing Chun because within White CRane wing Chun there are different sets of San Chin. so I use the karate san chin set as contrast where most people will know)

So, I disagree with “just fighting”. There are more to that. and lots of issue needs to be solved interm of mind/body conditioning to suite a particular style.

At the end, here is a sentence Terence or some of you might not like to listern. and please ignore me if you dont like to listern.

Technical history finding will let one to be able to find out what kind of Conditioning and the process of the conditioning design for that particular style. and it is very critical because without knowing that particular conditioning. One can have great general conditioning but will not be able to activate or optimize the style. Such as, if one take away the Inch Jing Join Power of the White Crane Weng Chun’s or its white Crane decendent style. The style’s will not be as effective as it was designed.

IMHHHO
Wing Chun if using the Southern Matis/Hakka style conditioning, Then Wing Chun will lost/become not effective in that Reeling/binding characteristics.
Wing Chun if using the Shao Lin TaiZhu style of conditioning, Then Wing Chun will lost /become not effective in that Reeling/binding characteristics.
Wing Chun if using the Boxing conditioning, Then
Wing Chun will lost/become not effective in that Reeling/binding characteristics.

Thus, that is the significant of technical history and finding out what, how, why… the enginee can be started.

A reason of the existance of the Qi stuff is about to be able to monitor the path and the weight of the conditioning process, beside using breathing as an indicator. how do one knows one’s heart functioning is going weak? monitoring that heart medirians.

Thus, Chan by itself doesnt solve all the problem. Qi by itself doesnt solve all the problem. Breathng by itself doesnt solve all the problem. stucture by itself doesnt solve all the problem… it is an integrated system one is looking at.

Not a simple issues. everything is linking to everything.
IMHHHO.

I hope that people understand seraching into History is not about who is the oldest or most original or any secret technics but it is all about do we understand what kind of technology/conditioning was developed and thier effectiveness. without clearly knowing the technology/conditioning of a style in Chinese Martial art is just kidding ourself that we know that style. We can add and import and mix before we have a clear understanding. But is it that style? or we just create one of our own?

just some thoughts.

The best proof of a correct history is about found the key for others to be able to turn on the enginee of SLT/SNT for whoever and whatever lineage from RedBoat as it is. and heard “WOW, it works!” with joy.

10

Originally posted by t_niehoff
[B]Vankuen,

I agree with you – conditioning is critical. It goes back to the old swimming metaphor, one can’t be a good swimmer without being in good condition (it doesn’t matter if you know the backstroke if you gas in seconds). And the training to become a good swimmer, swimming in the pool, puts you in good condition (though as you point out, you can supplement it). This is why you can look at someone and tell they have no fighting skill – soft, out-of-shape, easily winded – regardless of what title they’ve given themselves. Moreover, skill in WCK isn’t something you attain and then have it for life; it’s like any fighting skill, you must maintain it (stay in shape, etc.). [/B]

Crikey Terence had to catch myself there you mentioned swimming without reference to dry land swimming:D :smiley: Actually i propose the phrase armchair general?? What do you reckon??

Actually Terence i use swimming on my GPP days on the Conjugate method for anaerobic stuff. Done in the correct manner = HELL!!!

Victor
I impressed for a middle age gent (i hope i’ve worded that politely) you are actively practising S&C. There are to many people who misunderstand S&C usually conjuring up images of “Arnie” (oh dear)..You have my respect sir.

11

conditioning

conditioning
no brainer , you should be conditioning yourself for no other reason then a better quality of life

if you base you conditioning only for a martial art then your an idoit and a slave :smiley:

as for how the old dead guys conditioned Hendrik bro there is no proof what so ever that they had any real skill , not one shread of factual proof ,

there is only one real power in combat , the ability to do damage to another person trying to do damage to you in motion

no sitting in stances , breathing , doing forms , hitting a dummy , reeling , sinking , burping ****ing

none of that equates to functional power

there is no proof ,

sure if you create the game [ set the fixed limits ] you can demonstrate any magical bs you want

but once you break the dam and the water starts rushing in on all sides things change

any one can become the king of the kingdom they create , but that kingdom my have no functional purpose in the real world ,

but people still search for atlantis and the ark chasing shadows i guess

hey who cares , as long as you can be the king of your kingdom right !

12

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
[B]Kevin:

Lots of stretching (the entire body)
Hindu pushups
situps
Hindu squats
pull-ups
chin-ups
back bridges
jogging
shadow-boxing
chi gung breathing exercises
curls [/B]

I do pretty much the same except I add

Forms
Punching drills
Stepping/turning drills

Shrimping
Leg scissors (for open guard conditioning)

1 leg calf raises
Alternate Lunges
Hand post Stand ups

and I subtract

shadow boxing, chi gung and pull ups (no space for a bar in my flat -sometime do bent over dumbell rows)

13

Re: conditioning

Originally posted by Ernie
[B]
as for how the old dead guys conditioned Hendrik bro there is no proof what so ever that they had any real skill , not one shread of factual proof ,

there is only one real power in combat , the ability to do damage to another person trying to do damage to you in motion

[/B]

Your opinion is accepted and embrace.
But is it reality? that is a big question.

Very true, and agree.
“There is only one real power in combat, the ability to do damage to another person trying to do damage to you in motion”

However, there is a different in power. The Tsunami power, The rock rooling down from hill power. The wild forest fire burning power. The power of arrow and bow. The power of bullets. The power of communication jamming. The power of neuclear weapon. The power of laser cannon. The power of TNT.

There is only “power” but there are ways and ways to reach to that “power”. Different people due to different condition getting different power.

When there is riot in the country where the people of the world starving and have no grain to eat. the Queen said, why dont they just eat meat. It is only Food Power. big deal. and there is no proof that grains feed better. :smiley:

BTW. the grain eater has less tendency to develop heart problem.:smiley:

14

There is only “power” but there are ways and ways to reach to that “power”. Different people due to different condition getting different power.-Hendrik

better to say there is a result when power is correct

how to to create that result is the real question

how to test that result will keep you on the right path

untested results are a lie

for example Vankuen did not know how deep his well was until he pressure tested himself and was honest about the result

based on that result he will then have a plan to improve his results

this is personal not general , the only way to improve your results is to test and evaluate

then you can take in information from others that have proven there training methods and produced similar results to what you are after

and borrow there methods

then test again and see what happens

but to just do something because you heard or read it worked 1,000 years ago for some non proven person

is not logical and can waste alot of time

as always the individual will always be greater then the system

systems only offer methods

the person makes them work

15

Originally posted by Ernie
[B]There is only “power” but there are ways and ways to reach to that “power”. Different people due to different condition getting different power.-Hendrik

better to say there is a result when power is correct

how to to create that result is the real question

how to test that result will keep you on the right path

untested results are a lie

for example Vankuen did not know how deep his well was until he pressure tested himself and was honest about the result

based on that result he will then have a plan to improve his results

this is personal not general , the only way to improve your results is to test and evaluate

then you can take in information from others that have proven there training methods and produced similar results to what you are after

and borrow there methods

then test again and see what happens

but to just do something because you heard or read it worked 1,000 years ago for some non proven person

is not logical and can waste alot of time

as always the individual will always be greater then the system

systems only offer methods

the person makes them work [/B]

great post.

16

Originally posted by Nick Forrer
[B]I do pretty much the same except I add

Forms
Punching drills
Stepping/turning drills

Shrimping
Leg scissors (for open guard conditioning)

1 leg calf raises
Alternate Lunges
Hand post Stand ups

and I subtract

shadow boxing, chi gung and pull ups (no space for a bar in my flat -sometime do bent over dumbell rows) [/B]

Hey Nick

shadow boxing? i didnt know you done some boxing. If you do come down to Soton to do the Anti Grappling sesh maybe we can get the gloves out and do some boxing as well.

Ernie,
Dont you know that under the pavement theres a monster that comes up from the floor via your body and gives you a sledge hammer type punch???:slight_smile: :slight_smile:

Cheers chaps
Kev

17

kev
Ernie,
Dont you know that under the pavement theres a monster that comes up from the floor via your body and gives you a sledge hammer type punch???

what if you in pool or on snow :slight_smile: i was stuck in the snow all weekend by a lake so it was fresh on my mind

as for my work outs

as of 2 weeks ago nothing ! i’m eating like a pig and doing nothing !

well except for the running and stretching and rehab on my arm :smiley:

18

Ernie,

Thus i heard according to legend the monster can also swim ever heard of loch ness???

[[Eating like a pig and taking a well earned rest…]]

Good job as well. Rest is the most important thing right now bro, heal that darn arm!!! Plus you’ve earnt the rest and the fun thing is putting yourself back through the mill and getting it back!!!

As im sat here now i’ve come off of three gym sesh’s in two days (bank holiday monday just gone had to make up a day yesterday with two gym sessions) two hour WC sesh last night, gym today boxing tonight and cycling to work at 6 30am tomorrow Pilates tomorrow night. Friday Max Effort lower body and an appointment with the Concept two rower.Vegetable steamer on the go right now and looking forward to two days rest at the weekend and a glass of the red stuff.

19

It goes back to the old swimming metaphor

NOOOOO!!! :eek: :eek: :eek:

Strength, endurance (includes will), skill.

If you outstrip your opponent in 2 of these three areas, IMO the odds are on your side.

20

Wow, now I kinda miss training with Nico and that crew…I remember they were always very gung ho and really pushed you (but werent nuts.) Conditioning for short burts like 15, 30 60 and 120 second rounds is great. It allows one a lot more breathing room in the street so to speak. What few realize is the debilitating effect an adrenaline dump can have on you during an altercation-its BAD for me anyways, tires me out incredibly fast.