Good Comment from another Thread

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
1

Jim Roselando had a good quote from the “What’s your goal” thread, “Ok! So, why not take two months off from your regular cardio training and then get on the matt and see if that sort of training is not essential to that art functioning or not.”

I like this quote and because I believe that WC is not based on physical attributes like speed, strength, stamina, etc.. One skilled in WC could take whatever time off of cardio training and still function quite well. Since real fights don’t last like boxing rounds, or shouldn’t, due to the dangers of a prolonged engagement, one that has the skills through years of training will still be able to handle themselves well on the street. As Bruce Lee said, one will be able to do what is necessary when in a fight and the body will go until needed. Again the emphasize here is someone that has the skills, which means they have already gone through the years of training and have changed their bodies to adapt to the Wing Chun system, not people just using it as a hobby or people just starting out. I don’t do cardio anymore myself and know that I couldn’t last too long in a competition like boxing bout, the legs are not there for that, but due to rules and regulations, the goal of defeating the enemy takes longer. On the street there are no rules so therefore the vast array of weapons can be used, including anything available outside our own natural weapons, sticks, clubs, broken glass, etc…So I feel confident that I could defend myself and/or others if need be.

Cardio would help, don’t get me wrong, but not all are willing to put the time in or can. Should we as WC practitioners/teachers turn people away from learning WC if they are not willing to participate in Cardio/Conditioning programs? No, is my response, and to do otherwise is against the original intention of the creation of WC IMO.

James

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When was the last time you got into a physical confrontation on the street with someone who was bigger or stronger than you? If you think you don’t need cardio for that type of situation, you are a fool. If you are teaching that BS at your school, that is pure McDojo teaching.

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Firstly, it’s not my school, secondly what does that have to do with the thread?? Just so you know, out of the 3 main evening classes we have everyday, one of them is a cardio/conditioning workout, which includes all kinds of things and variations depending on who is instructing, and performing over 500 punches and 500 kicks on the mitts and bags in one session is the norm.

Now, if strength and size are the true factors in a fight, why aren’t the wrestlers of WWF or the heavy weight power lifters not the best fighters in the world? Now, let’s just get the meaning of what I said in my thread straight. I’m not talking about a couch potato, or someone that is so weak they can hardly do 10 pushups or 10 crunches, but a average person of average physical strength that is healthy, and has years of WC training behind them. Using me as an example, the only exercise I do is weight training, 3X a week, sometimes less depending on mood and schedule, and forms, stretching and wooden dummy work, and I’m no powerhouse naturally, but more of a runner type physic with some muscle on top. If you have viewed my clips, I haven’t lost any speed since my training days ( but in your mind I may appear slow, you would be in the minority for that opinion), but I do not practice speed drills, so how is this possible. The skill has increased, just due to more experience with the Art and self discovery. Like I have said in earlier threads, I also believe that there are other ways of training, besides physically, but his is only achievable when the skills are already within one’s possession, and not when learning them, although vivid visualization is a key learning tool when beginning something new.

I’m not guaranteeing anyone of anything, and I’m not saying cardio/conditioning is a bad thing, but is it a necessity for absolute success in a street fight? What about other elements like surprise, spirit, tactics, positioning, experience, etc… Dale, if you took 2 months off all physical training, would you really be unable to handle yourself in a streetfight, against someone bigger than you, but maybe not as skilled. Ernie has an injury and cannot participate in certain physical things, but has related how his sensitivity has increased and other skill attributes as well. Is skill obsolete now in fighting?? I don’t think so, and if you do then your abilities will deteriorate as time goes by, due to the aging process..

James

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Hello James,

Thanks for moving this thread to have its own life!

Its a very sensative subject for many.

I believe Dave C said it nicely:

If you need cardio to fight with WCK then you are not doing WCK.

Thats not the same for other arts but I/we are talking about Rou arts/WCK.

Lets see how this thread takes off! Most likely, we will be the minority who think like this.

Peace,

5

James writes:

>Now, if strength and size are the true factors in a fight, why aren’t the wrestlers of WWF or the heavy weight power lifters not the best fighters in the world?

Err, was there some logic in there?

If Lesnar goes MMA, expect a homicide or two. Heavyweight powerlifters? Umm, powerlifting is the sport of lifting a heavy thing once in three ways. Speed-strength, strength endurance, and speed-strength endurance aren’t favored, nor is relative strength at the higher weight classes, which is an important determinant for agility, a useful skill in fighting.

Now if any of the WSM guys go MMA, be freakin’ frightened.

Jim writes:

>believe Dave C said it nicely:

>If you need cardio to fight with WCK then you are not doing WCK.

Perhaps you should define cardio. I agree that one’s mile and 10k times are probably irrelevant for fighting puposes, but the 50, 100, 400 or their temporal equivalents have some bearing on the matter.

Andrew

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Jim asked me the question, and I responded to it on the other thread.

Basically, my experience in this regard reinforced my opinion on the value and necessity of keeping up your General Performance Preparation, including cardio training.

It would be really nice if things worked otherwise, but then we’d live in an imaginary universe.

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we will be the minority who think like this

Probably. It could be because you are smarter or understand WC better than the rest, but it could also be because you are wrong.

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why aren’t the wrestlers of WWF or the heavy weight power lifters not the best fighters in the world?

Gene LeBell was a pro wrestler and is regarded that way by many.

Bad News Anderson was an Olympic Medallist in Judo, IIRC.

Ken Shamrock did some pro wrestling. Jeez, even Mike Tyson was mixed up with Vince McMahon (sp?) and that lot for a while.

As Andrew said, being able to shift heavy objects is a useful attribute for a fighter, but not the only one.

You seem to feel strongly about this, James.

But you say cardio training is non essential, but then your academy runs a classful of it every night of the week. Not exactly a basis for credibility. Or are you just catering to the delusions of the unenlightened masses to get punters through the door?

Why not shut your cardio class down for the two months then, huh? Put your money where your mouth is and all that …

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Cardio is a necessary part of life in general. To suggest that cardio is not an essential part of any physical activity or sport, especially one that involves combat is just nuts.

Ever get into a real fight? Ever feel the strength run out of your body? Ever think of dealing with more than one opponent? Ever think you might need to run, climb, jump, fight while injured to save your life? Ever get tired in chi sao / sparring while the other guy is just getting warmed up?

WCK not relying on great strength is one thing. There is, however, no Wing Chun that does not rely on your heart pumping oxygen to your body to keep you going in combat. If your out of shape then you better hope that you can end the ‘fight’ in less than 5 seconds because that’s all you’ll have and in the street it often won’t be enough. Bad guys don’t fight fair, walk up one at a time, let you rest in-between ‘bouts’, sip on your gator aid and challenge you in 20 minute intervals.

You can be the best Wing Chun artist in the world but if you run out of gas it won’t matter in the least, you’ll be DOA!

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Can you beat an unskilled scrub if you are more skilled but have no conditioning? Yeah, maybe, sometimes. But being out of condition is just one less tool you have in your toolbox and means you have less of a chance of beating someone than if you were in better condtion. If you are training for self defense or figthing ability, it just makes sense to train in a system that gets you in shape as part of its training methodology… not to mention the health benefits that come from high levels of cardiovascular and muscular fitness.

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Dale,

this is a spinoff from the “What are your goals?” thread.

The argument being presented there (not by me, I hasten to add) is that cardio training is detrimental to health - as opposed to chi kung and wing chun, which some people seem to think have more than incidental commonalities for reasons I have yet to fathom.

So far they have been unable to successfully argue the case for these assertions on that thread IMO.

They also think cardio training, weight training, and they types of conditioning done for performance enhancement by participants in just about every other field of physical endeavour are counterproductive.

I disagreed, FWIW.

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In a perfect world this may be true, but cardio and strength training can only be seen as a plus no matter what art you’re training in, IMO. Besides, if you’re outnumbered or outgunned, you may need to make a quick exit without running out of gas.

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Andrew,
If the skill is the same then the one with greater strength or speed will have the advantage. You are larger than your instructor Boztepe, so what is it that makes him the better fighter? Skills maybe and his own strength and attributes? Skills are the great equalizer IMO, but a quality skilled big man will be a problem compared to a quality skilled little man, so I agree there. Thing is most big men have ego’s just as big and therefore feel no need to learn something, that can be to the advantage of the smaller man. Chop them down like a tree they say…

James

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Andrew,

The cardio class is for those that want to do it and to fill a need for the public, I choose not to participate so I am putting my money where my mouth is. :slight_smile: I may not be able to last more more than a minute or two but it won’t be easy for most to put me away in that time under the right circumstances, meaning a non competative event where each fighter has previous knowledge of the other’s skills and style. If they can then all the more too them, but if the deciding factor was conditioning and outlasting me then really how skilled are you in your Art?

Also concerning Bigger Larger Men and fighting, in which weight divisions in Boxing are the most skilled fighters. Lighter weights IMO, because they punch faster and move faster therefore they need to be more skilled with their tools. Bigger, heavier men rely more on power punching and one punch knock outs, that’s why that division is boring to watch and has lack of competitiveness today. Ali was the exception as he was a bigger man but fought like a fighter in a lighter weight class.

James

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Skilled enough in my opinion, since you couldn’t take them out either. And in the end, their conditioning will get them the desired result.

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In the documentary “Bruce Lee: A Warrior’s Journey”, Linda Lee-Caldwell relates the incident where Bruce was delivered an ultimatum from other CMA schools to stop teaching non-Chinese. The result was a challenge match to defend his right to teach. He fought for something like 15-20 mins. against an equally skilled opponent. I can’t remember if he won or drew, but history shows that he kept on teaching. After the bout, he expressed his disbelief at how unfit he was and subsequently embarked on a life-long cardio regimen.

So what do you think of the value of cardio?

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Our “condition” is the main factor in determining success in any fighting method. “Conditioning” is preparing our body for fighting and everything that goes into it, including cardio. Specifically how we condition ourselves depends on our method; different methods require preparing our bodies in different ways to do different things (this is partly why the WCK folks that believe they can successfully groundfight with WCK are in for a rude awakening should they ever try it – WCK, besides not having the tools, won’t condition your body for successful groundfighting). Our fighting skill is dependent on our conditioning – they go hand-in-hand. It is an error to think of skill and conditioning as two different things as they operate together to produce results (like fuel and and engine need each other). For example, a world-class level boxer has world-class skills because he’s in world-class condition; a lay-off reduces his skill level since it reduces his conditioning. To regain his world-class skill level, he needs to get that level of conditioning back. Skill is a level of performance and conditioning is our bodies ability to perform.

The reason nonfighting/theoreticians don’t grasp this fundamental notion that all fighters regardless of style, lineage, etc. understand is because they don’t see “skill” in WCK as fighting skill. They don’t fight, and so lacking that experience, believe what they want to believe. But fighting is the most intense of all physical activities, and that intensity requires our bodies be ready for it.

I don’t like the term “non-attribute-dependent” since many take that to mean one doesn’t need attributes. But WCK, like Gracie JJ, is often called a “non-attribute-dependent” fighting method. What that means is that those methods are more dependent on mechanics for the successful application of that method’s “techniques”. Even with that being the case, certain “attributes” are still essential, including conditioning and timing.

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Hello all,

A-lich and I were discussing this on the other thread. Yes, there is nothing wrong with regular and consistent lo-impact cardio. What I am talking about is the not so frequent high impact turbo up the heart rate stuff that shocks the system as you get older. If you think that is good for you then thats ok.

There you are Terence! I was waiting for your typical swim/non -swim post! hehehe

Our “condition” is the main factor in determining success in any fighting method.

Yes! jr

“Conditioning” is preparing our body for fighting and everything that goes into it,

Yes! That is what WCK is after all. A system of cultivation to produce a specific method or way of fighting. jr

including cardio.

Really? Show me where in any portion of the art is some sign of cardio? jr

Specifically how we condition ourselves depends on our method; different methods require preparing our bodies in different ways to do different things

You are 1000% correct! Thats what makes WCK WCK and WCK not boxing or something else. jr

(this is partly why the WCK folks that believe they can successfully groundfight with WCK are in for a rude awakening should they ever try it – \WCK, besides not having the tools, won’t condition your body for successful groundfighting).

I agree with you. WCK is not everything. I dont believe in WCK for the ground. I believe WCK is a specific method for a specifc way. We specialize in close range short bridge combat. jr

Our fighting skill is dependent on our conditioning – they go hand-in-hand. It is an error to think of skill and conditioning as two different things as they operate together to produce results (like fuel and and engine need each other).

You are 100% correct. We condition the body, the breath and the thought process. We scuplt our bodies thru our sets, we give them a little feel thru partner sets and chi sao, we give it some power/beef thru the jong, pole, knives, etc. and we free it all up thru free fighting. jr

For example, a world-class level boxer has world-class skills because he’s in world-class condition; a lay-off reduces his skill level since it reduces his conditioning. To regain his world-class skill level, he needs to get that level of conditioning back. Skill is a level of performance and conditioning is our bodies ability to perform.

Absolutely! Each art has there own ways and needs. jr

The reason nonfighting/theoreticians don’t grasp this fundamental notion that all fighters regardless of style, lineage, etc. understand is because they don’t see “skill” in WCK as fighting skill. They don’t fight, and so lacking that experience, believe what they want to believe. But fighting is the most intense of all physical activities, and that intensity requires our bodies be ready for it.

Wow! There it is! Non/Theory dont know nothing. Nobody fights but the MMA and WCK Concept people. This kind a reminds me of JKD or JKD Concepts! hehehe Once again! I think a good thing we should all do so this non-sense takes a rest is have all of us get the people we have fought in recent times and have the list their credential and there experience when fighting with us. Then! We can post it with every post we make so we can see who is the really testing their stuff out or not. If not, then I think another good idea is for the Swimmers to show us non-swimmers the proof or results from their competing in any MMA or so-called Real competition with their Water tested WCK. Where the proof from that side? The shoe fits on both feet! Otherwise we are all nothing more than Keyboard Warriors IMHHHHHO. jr

I don’t like the term “non-attribute-dependent” since many take that to mean one doesn’t need attributes. But WCK, like Gracie JJ, is often called a “non-attribute-dependent” fighting method. What that means is that those methods are more dependent on mechanics for the successful application of that method’s “techniques”. Even with that being the case, certain “attributes” are still essential, including conditioning and timing.

100% correct. Each art has their own way to condition their bodies for fighting. There are arts that require Cardio and there are arts that dont. There is nothing wrong with some consistent regular cardio. Its good for you and your heart but that blast the heart rate up once in a while or during exchange is not as healthy for us when we get older. jr

Just checking in from the road! Where are the Leung Sheung guys on this one! I would like to hear some of Ken Chung’s peoples thoughts!

See ya next week!

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“Conditioning is the best hold.” (Karl Gotch)

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JR asks:

Really? Show me where in any portion of the art is some sign of cardio? jr

**Certainly forms and cooperative drills don’t require much cardio – but that’s not WCK in application (fighting). Move your body in any way at 100% intensity for any length of time and then tell me you don’t need cardio.

**You ask to hear from the Leung Sheung/Ken Chung people? Why? So that more nonfighting/theoreticians can support your beliefs? Anyone that fights against folks with good attributes or skill will tell you the same thing: cardio is essential regardless of one’s fighting method. Only the nonfighters believe otherwise. And I say that because if they fought anyone with significant levels of attributes or skills, they would know cardio is essential since that experience would have proven it to them. It’s only the folks that haven’t done it, that lack the experience, who believe otherwise.

**It’s rather simple: out-of-condition, out-of-shape (including lack of good cardio) means lack of (fighting) skill. Is it really surprising that the folks that are out-of-shape nonfighters want to believe otherwise?