Apparently that fight with Wong Jak Man only lasted maybve 5 minutes and the reason why Bruce was tired was he had to chase the guy around the room, not from using his Wing Chun. Bruce did win the fight by eventually catching Wong and making him say Uncle.
I think there is value in Cardio, and you can make Wing Chun a cardio workout but it is not the essential attribute that makes it effective.
James
Vic/T,
“Conditioning is the best hold.” (Karl Gotch)
Absolutely! For Wrestling it is! For WCK it is a different type of conditioning.
**Certainly forms and cooperative drills don’t require much cardio – but that’s not WCK in application (fighting). Move your body in any way at 100% intensity for any length of time and then tell me you don’t need cardio.
There ya go! 100% intensity! 100% intensity for any length of time! So, how long does it take to put a severe hurting on someone with your art? Or are you doing multiple rounds of controlled enviornment sparring like the UFC which would indeed need that.
**You ask to hear from the Leung Sheung/Ken Chung people? Why? So that more nonfighting/theoreticians can support your beliefs?
Why? Because they train WCK to be expressed in a relaxed way! Oh! I forgot! He is not a fighter because he hasn’t entered the UFC or any MMA event right? So, like I said before! Please show the proof! Where are the results from any WCK ready MMA event guy! We are all waiting! Remember! Results are what counts right? Show us all the results or lets all provide a list with credentials from the people we have all fought with their statements. Otherwise we are all KEYBOARD WARRIORS! Like it or not! Swim or dont swim.
Anyone that fights against folks with good attributes or skill will tell you the same thing: cardio is essential regardless of one’s fighting method. Only the nonfighters believe otherwise. And I say that because if they fought anyone with significant levels of attributes or skills, they would know cardio is essential since that experience would have proven it to them. It’s only the folks that haven’t done it, that lack the experience, who believe otherwise.
Your right! Lets provide a refernece list and there testimony! I am up for it! Just like I was up for the video footage. Anyone else? Are you up for it?
**It’s rather simple: out-of-condition, out-of-shape (including lack of good cardio) means lack of (fighting) skill. Is it really surprising that the folks that are out-of-shape nonfighters want to believe otherwise?
Who is out of shape? If you huff and puff when doing or fighting with WCK then you are putting too much effort into your movement!
But! Since your a promoter of real fighting then there is only one thing that matter right?! Where’s the results! Thats your standard line so lets all be willing to have a refence list attached to our Bio or show us the results from any WCK man who has fought in any MMA event. The only person on this list who has anything to back up his talk is the MMA guys who competed in two events. But! He is not a WCK practitioner so we can leave him out. Show us the results.
Until then, end of discsussion and that Fighter/Theory Swim/Sink stuff is meaningless without the results to show us all just how we should be doing stuff.
Until then, Keyboard Warriors we all are!
Regards,
Sihing/James wrote;
it is not the essential attribute that makes it effective.
Thank you!
Then I will come back for another day, unless of course it was a death match. Lets put it this way, if someone defeated me just by outlasting me in a sparring match, and the conditioning was the only thing that made the difference, then I could easily train for as little as 2 months and come back to defeat this person. I’d much rather have superior effectiveness in what I am doing than superior conditioning because there are more well conditioned fighters out there IMO, than highly skilled fighters. Wing Chun IMO is a MA that emphasizes High quality effectiveness in everything it promotes and teaches us, therefore it is available to everyone. If a MA relies on how conditioned you are then it is available to only a few.
James
JR wrote:
There ya go! 100% intensity! 100% intensity for any length of time! So, how long does it take to put a severe hurting on someone with your art? Or are you doing multiple rounds of controlled enviornment sparring like the UFC which would indeed need that.
**How long does it take to “put a sever hurting on someone”? It depends on the someone. Here’s an experiment for you, Jim – go find a decent MMA/NHB fighter, so it’s someone that is skilled and has some attributes, and ask him to fight you until one of you is either unconscious (and can’t continue) or submits (gives up). Do that a few times and then come back and tell me you can finish these guys in seconds. Then tell me that you don’t need cardio. Or, keep believing your fantasy.
Why? Because they train WCK to be expressed in a relaxed way!
**All fighters train to be relaxed. Boxers, BJJ, etc. are relaxed when they fight. That doesn’t mean it doesn’t take great exertion.
Oh! I forgot! He is not a fighter because he hasn’t entered the UFC or any MMA event right? So, like I said before! Please show the proof! Where are the results from any WCK ready MMA event guy! We are all waiting! Remember! Results are what counts right? Show us all the results or lets all provide a list with credentials from the people we have all fought with their statements. Otherwise we are all KEYBOARD WARRIORS! Like it or not! Swim or dont swim.
**It’s fighting that makes one a fighter, not entering tournaments. It has nothing to do with being keyboard warriors; it has to do with experience. Anyone that has fought with skilled people --ANYONE-- will tell you cardio condittion is a huge factor. The only people saying otherwise are folks that don’t fight or haven’t fought. You don’t need to take my word for it. As I said above, go do my experiment and you’ll see that I’m telling you the truth. If you don’t want that experience, then keep believing your fantasy. If you come to Victor’s get-together I’ll be glad to show you why cardio is important.
Who said anything about “Non-attribute-dependent”. Skill attibutes are essential to WC training IMO. Plus Terence, it is not about the “Mechanics” that seperate WC from other MA in terms of effectiveness, but how and why we do things. The Tan Sao is not going to win in a combat situation, lol, but how, and when I use it correctly will. Positioning, economy of motion, proper guards, perception skills, timing, efficiency in technique and concept, effectiveness of what we are doing in our movements is what sets the WC system apart from the others. It slows down the other persons actions and/or makes it hard for them to attack, either by taking their tools out of commission by traps, using positioning strategies(like TWC blindide theory) or by using a close range tactics making it harder for them to get their tools off, effectively.
That Belfort vs Silva fight that has been mentioned on this forum, both men were in great shape but the fight lasted 45 seconds because of what Belfort did, not because of his phyical conditioning and ability to last round after round. Yeah, he is a strong guy in good shape and the conditioning he has done has increase his punching power, but the method he used to attack Silva was the thing that made it effective, and that thing highly resembled a Wing Chun tactic and technique.
James
Why is it that people always come back and say, “If your Art is so good go out and challenge so and so professional fighter that has 8 hours a day of training and time behind them”, lol. How about I take a NHB fighter like me that teaches all day and maybe workouts out a couple of times a week, but nothing like a pro would and then test him out. This way we are releying on how effective are individual Arts are and not on how conditioned each individual is. That is what we are talking about right, effectiveness?
By the way, I know this is a story and I have mentioned this before, but one of our Students did just that, he knew the local NHB champ, and the same guy owns the Local NHB gym, they sparred and our student owned him, just due to the fact that the NHB guy was so unfamiliar with our students tactics and style. This student of ours is a natural fighter but does not train much (he has just recently come back to train on a regular basis, he does this type of thing, comes back for 6 months and then leaves training for 6 months, and has been with us since 92’) in the WC school, and is a level 7 in our system which is equivalent to a black belt per say. He even had him in the school to try and teach him some stuff.
James
T/James,
Find any MMA guy or NHB guy that trains the same ammount as me and I may win or I may not. I dont train that much anymore but I certainly go out and test against local people who train daily or triple what I do. I know what demands it takes on the body! For me, and the ammount of time I have to train, my WCK works very well. And! Since in the last few years I have been un-lucky to have been involved in some fights I am more than satisfied with the results of the time put in! Like I said, I am more than happy to have them (the people I fight) post credential and thoughts. Thats the only thing we can all do to put this BS non-sense to rest. Pound for pound it is one of the more effective methods of body usage for me!
How else do we know who is fighting or not and what level they are fighting against?
Otherwise! Its Keyboard Warriors!
2 days per week is all I have to train now a days! Find an art that if you only have 2 days a week to train that can give you decent results that need not have you in the gym and in the areobics class other than a few arts. Wing Chun is one.
If I was training harder and regular then lots more stuff can be done.
Sorry if you dont see that!
James wrote:
Why is it that people always come back and say, “If your Art is so good go out and challenge so and so professional fighter that has 8 hours a day of training and time behind them”, lol. How about I take a NHB fighter like me that teaches all day and maybe workouts out a couple of times a week, but nothing like a pro would and then test him out. This way we are releying on how effective are individual Arts are and not on how conditioned each individual is. That is what we are talking about right, effectiveness?
Why is this so hard to understand?
Regards,
James writes:
Thing is most big men have ego’s just as big and therefore feel no need to learn something, that can be to the advantage of the smaller man. Chop them down like a tree they say…
Funny, the mellowist guys I run into are almost always the heavyweights. There are some exceptions, but usually the big boys are used to not trying to break the small hyper guys they train with, while still figuring out how to get something out of training with them.
That Belfort vs Silva fight that has been mentioned on this forum, both men were in great shape but the fight lasted 45 seconds because of what Belfort did, not because of his phyical conditioning and ability to last round after round. Yeah, he is a strong guy in good shape and the conditioning he has done has increase his punching power, but the method he used to attack Silva was the thing that made it effective
And the method would be- conditioning, specifically anaerobic conditioning allowing him to do a short burst of extremely explosive work. Belfort may be the ‘Phenom’, but if you think that wasn’t a trained attribute, you are deeply confused.
As I said, the 50, 100, and 400, as well as the ability to run them repeatedly, as it were.
Andrew
sihing,
You prabably are a nice guy and sincerely believe all that stuff, but you are very much “confused” about so many things. I could try and explain but it wouldn’t do any good because you lack the experience – you’ve never done WCK (fought). The only thing that will help you is to get this experience. If you don’t get it, you’ll forever be one of the theoretician/nonfighters without a clue about WCK. Oh, sure, you’ll have your theories, you’ll have your faith in your sifu, you’ll have your cooperative practice (that you believe is noncooperative), etc. but all that provides you with no real skill and no real understanding. Do yourself a big favor: actually begin practicing WCK, that is put it into real practice by fighting, and not with your schoolmates, but good people from different disciplines. When you do that, all the BS will begin to fall away.
An afterthought . . .
sihing wrote:
Why is it that people always come back and say, “If your Art is so good go out and challenge so and so professional fighter that has 8 hours a day of training and time behind them”, lol. How about I take a NHB fighter like me that teaches all day and maybe workouts out a couple of times a week, but nothing like a pro would and then test him out.
**A good MMA/NHB fighter doesn’t need to be pro – there are lots of folks training in MMA/NHB that never fight publically (just in training). And, even a lot of the pros don’t come close to training “8 hours a day”. Both these sorts of statements just show your ignorance: that you’ve never visited a MMA gym or met a good NHB fighter. You’ve been “learning WCK” for 10 years, right? So go to a MMA gym and ask to fight someone with only 3 years training, coming to the gym two or three nights a week. He’ll whoop you. If you don’t beleive me, try it.
JR wrote:
For me, and the ammount of time I have to train, my WCK works very well. And! Since in the last few years I have been un-lucky to have been involved in some fights I am more than satisfied with the results of the time put in!
**Funny, but I had a shotokan BB tell me exactly the same sort of thing – that his reverse punch from the hip worked in the streetfights (which, according to him, proved his method was sound), that he was able to use his blocks, etc. And they “spar” at his karate studio. Of course, none of that – the reverse punches or blocks – will work against anyone with any skill (why we don’t see it in NHB fights), and they are only able to make these things work in their “sparring” because everyone at his school is doing the same crap (and not doing those things that will take advantage of them). But he didn’t see it, and was happy with his results, until he visited a MMA gyms and experienced firsthand the sorts of things I’ve been talking about.
Last thoughts for T,
**Funny, but I had a shotokan BB tell me exactly the same sort of thing – that his reverse punch from the hip worked in the streetfights (which, according to him, proved his method was sound), that he was able to use his blocks, etc. And they “spar” at his karate studio. Of course, none of that – the reverse punches or blocks – will work against anyone with any skill (why we don’t see it in NHB fights), and they are only able to make these things work in their “sparring” because everyone at his school is doing the same crap (and not doing those things that will take advantage of them). But he didn’t see it, and was happy with his results, until he visited a MMA gyms and experienced firsthand the sorts of things I’ve been talking about.
Great story! Luckily I have not been ignoring the outside world. Its a lot more fun than the same old WC versus WC story. I am pretty happy on that end to! In case you were curious! All in all, its been good to me! I am not saying I dominated or won everytime but it has been good to me and hopefully will continue to be!
Adios,
Wait a minute here… Terence, you’ve always proclaimed that people need to fight a resisting opponent to be a fighter. Now, when someone fights in a street-fight and successful defeats his opponents, his techniques are not good enough. So now we need to enter NHB contests? What’s next, do we have to fight in a prison riot. :rolleyes:
BTW, I agree that the reverse punch from the hip is not the best, but that’s not the point of contention here.
So your a fortune teller now TOO! So in other words Terence, you believe in the effectiveness of MMA more so than WC, and you call yourself a WC teacher and practitioner, now that even a MHB hobbist fight can take me out. Your like someone else on this forum I know, they already have their minds made up too, so no use in going on anyfurther. If I do you will probably come back and say the half the senior citizens in the old folks home down the street from me can kick my butt to.
James
P.S. Been practiticing WC for 16yrs now and teaching for 14yrs, but in your eyes this is probably more proof of how lousy my WC is and myself as a practitioner because you can tell skill from level from posts on a internet forum, LOL…Terence the ALL KNOWING.
“Funny, but I had a shotokan BB tell me exactly the same sort of thing – that his reverse punch from the hip worked in the streetfights (which, according to him, proved his method was sound), that he was able to use his blocks, etc. And they “spar” at his karate studio. Of course, none of that – the reverse punches or blocks – will work against anyone with any skill (why we don’t see it in NHB fights), and they are only able to make these things work in their “sparring” because everyone at his school is doing the same crap (and not doing those things that will take advantage of them). But he didn’t see it, and was happy with his results, until he visited a MMA gyms and experienced firsthand the sorts of things I’ve been talking about.” (Terence)
I THINK what Terence was saying here, Bill…is that the karate BB used his reverse punch from the hip successfully against his dojo sparring partners and perhaps against some unskilled guys in the street…
but when he visited a MMA gym he found out how inadequate many of his moves were against skilled fighters.
And he also said that fighting in public events is not a prerequisite to being a good fighter; but that in today’s world, crosstraining and fighting/sparring against skilled MMA guys and other stylists (other than one’s Wing Chun comrades) - is a prerequisite.
And I agree with him.
Matrix wrote:
Wait a minute here… Terence, you’ve always proclaimed that people need to fight a resisting opponent to be a fighter. Now, when someone fights in a street-fight and successful defeats his opponents, his techniques are not good enough. So now we need to enter NHB contests? What’s next, do we have to fight in a prison riot.
**Anyone can fight, even without training. But what I said, was that to become a significantly better fighter, one needs to fight as part of their training (like all good fighters do). The trouble with “streetfighting” – and folks that use it as proof of something – is that it can’t really measure your performance level doing it since one typically doesn’t know the skill level of the person they are fighting. You may win not because you have much skill but because your opponent is a scrub. I’ve met some people that have won lots of “streetfights” or barfights but were morsels for someone with some skill. This is the whole idea behind “progressive resistance” – the resistance is the opponent, the progression is in their skill level. Beating some chump on the ground in a streetfight doesn’t mean one has great groundfighting skills; beating a BJJ black belt on the mat proves you do. Similarly, Jim “winning” some street encounter doesn’t mean he has any significant WCK skills; stepping up and fighting a skilled fighter does.
**And, while we’re on the subject, the reason I use the term “fighting” instead of “sparring” is precisely because of my encounter with the shotokan BB – they “sparred” all the time, but they never fought. Someone that fights will know what I’m talking about (the difference between the two).
What’s the definition of a Good Fighter? One that competes or one that can defend themselves?
It will vary depending on your values and goals. The BB was able to use his reverse punch in real situations so therefore he has the ability to defend himself, great. As long as the ego doesn’t get out of hand, and he starts to think he is unbeatable, what else is there? Going out and fullfilling a Ego? Challenging one’s self? Where there is a Challenge to overcome, ego is not too far behind. Where there is a point to prove, ego is not too far behind. Is Wing Chun training about being the best? Or is it about learning a Martial Art, which firstly provides you with effective self defense and then after that is achieved, the more important life lessons.
James
Victor, that was exactly my point.
sihing, years in WCK, ranking, certificates, who your sifu is, how you’ve done is chi sao tournaments, etc. is all nonsense and meaningless. What matters is your personal level of performance, what you can do fighting (not how well we can do drills or forms). That can only be determined (and increased) by fighting (not sparring with your classmates). No fighting means no significant fighting (WCK) skill. Period. It’s like someone saying they never get in the pool – nothing else matters, because they won’t be a good swimmer, they can’t be. So all the grandmasters that never fought, never developed any real skill. If they stop fighting, their skills decline. How good they got can only be measured in the quality fo the opposition they fought.
Generalizations, that’s what this post is full of. How do you Terence know the skill level of every streetfighter in the world today. You say street experience means nothing, oh really. In the training of the NHB guys, do they really go out to kill one another in the “sparring/fight” sessions, are they using weapons against one another with undue care? Are they fighting their partner in class and having the rest of the class gang up on them, when the 10 minute bell has rung? As you already know, these are the situations, UNCONTROLLED situations that can happen in the street, or maybe you don’t know.
James
sihing, skill is our performance ability. So, it’s relatively easy to say who is a “good fighter” – it’s someone that can hold (and has held) their own against other good fighters consistently (they consistently perform at that level). A world-class fighter is someone who can hold their own against other world-class fighters consistently. Since fighting involves two (or more) persons “competing”, skill levels will always be relative, not objective.