Some martial artists have doubts about WC as a viable fighting art. Without going into grappling or cross training, etc., how can/should we train for real fighting using WC alone or do we need augmenataion from outside of WC?
Of course we all know that real fighting has “X” factors but I’d like to know what some of us are doing to prepare for the hard knocks of a real fight when you have no choice but to fight.
first and foremost
conditioning ,
in the street , sometimes you need to run jump ,slam people in the grill with objects
unless of course you really are willing to bet your life that every situation you could possibly run into will be a 3 second street fight 
or you really going to drop a 300 pound fresh out of jail p.issed at the world ruff neck with a chain punch
got to be able to weather the storm
also awareness got to be street savy , if you don’t see it coming who cares how devestating your skill is
darn i didn’t recall reading about those in the ancient wing chun scroll of wisdom
Ernie,
How many times I told you to read Sun Tzu’s The Art of War? All you need to know are hidden in those sacred bamboo’s scrolls! Ha! Ha!
Regards,
PH
P.S Sun Tzu summarized it by saying being able to make an accurate assessment of “Heaven, Man, and Earth” .
For heaven: weather, night or day, or elemental forces
For man: everything about you and your opponents - strength and weakness.
For earth: The special features of the terrain of the fight.
I like your idea for this thread, Phil…but why exclude grappling or crosstraining ? While I agree that wing chun is good enough to win many real fight situations all by itself - nonetheless, you and I both agree, I’m sure, that wing chun (whether it be TWC or any other lineage)…does not cover all the possible bases that a fight might entail.
So my suggestion is to cover how to train wing chun for real fighting INCLUDING the use of non-wing chun moves…making the final product into a “Wing Chun based” mixed martial art.
How to train it…What to exclude (hours and hours of nonstop chi sao - as just one example - forms are another example)…how NOT to fall into the trap of using TOO MUCH centerline facing - thereby sacrificing power, exposing targets needlessly and slowing oneself down; the importance of conditioning, cardio, and stretching - of long range footwork…
How not to fall into the trap of thinking that exact simultaneous block and strike must ALWAYS be the case…when/how to use broken rhythm and high/low transitions when attacking…and when/how to use a jab…when to retreat (dispelling the MYTH that you must always go forward)…the importance of MOBILITY and light-on-your-feet footwork - especially when closing or avoiding or sidestepping…Oh yes - did I mention SIDESTEPPING…
The importance of how/when to use punching mitts - and kicking shields/bags…how to train on the Wooden Dummy WITHOUT just making it into another “form” (taking the moves out and drilling them against a live partner who throws punches and moves around - and who responds to your attacks)…
How and when to throw realistic kicks that always work to your advantage (some wing chun “players” are basically clueless about kicking)…the importance of Differentiation drills - and how they help prepare for sparring…how to spar realistically…and how often (Answer: OFTEN) …and last but not least - how and when to use and defend takedowns, clinching, throwing , sweeping and grappling…
That was my idea for a new thread based upon the potentially promising but OH SO MISGUIDED “Why Wing Chun Is Inferior” thread - but without the nonsense that Knifefighter was trying to bring to the table.
Shall I start such a thread? Or can we go partners on this one?
Whatever you decide is fine with me.
Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
That was my idea for a new thread based upon the potentially promising but OH SO MISGUIDED “Why Wing Chun Is Inferior” thread - but without the nonsense that Knifefighter was trying to bring to the table.
Since you were the one who made the original assertion about WC being superior to kickboxing, why don’t you do a post supporting your position, rather than just mocking my post? Or would that take too much intelligence?
Victor you, me, Ernie and others, believe in cross training. I just wanted to see what the WC purists would do to prepare themselves for the rigors of all out full contact training using only WC. That’s why I omitted grappling. You can jump in here I don’t mind. Many fights end up with some sort of grappling anyway. Those that can make their WC training realistic with or without grappling can share here.
Lessons my Sifu Taught Me
I don’t cross train in other martial arts to fill a perceived deficit in Wing Chun. I feel that Wing Chun has all the answers to every question I’ve ever been asked in a fight, and it’s a long path to mastery, but my Wing Chun seems to be improving over the years. However, I do enjoy training with other MA styles.
I worked out with a kickboxer last week who also has studied Wing Chun and is good at both IMO. When combining Muay Thai style kicks in a Wing Chun fashion, I found it very entertaining. If I failed to press and take the superior position, his greater kicking experience brought me up short every time, forcing me to be more aggressive, taking more chances, and taking less time for judging the situation, leading to more exchanges that honestly, I wish I could be certain that I could deal with on the street.
From experiences like this one, I feel that Wing Chun needs to fight its own fight, in the closest possible distance, and stay tight on a kicker or “runner”’ rather than letting him set his distance—lessons that my teachers have always stressed. If the Wing Chun man or woman gives the kicker room to kick, that is, at visual distance rather than tactile, then we’re giving up our greatest advantage. If we’re in our range, there shouldn’t be anyone who can get a kick off before we detect the intent. Your mileage may vary.
Knifefighter:
The long answer to your question has already begun to be answered in detail by previous posts on this and other threads…
but the short answer to why wing chun offers more than kickboxing is because wing chun…WHEN DONE WELL…covers all the bases that kickboxing does (long range/medium range)…and then ADDS SO MUCH MORE ABOUT THE INFIGHT.
Much more than what is covered in kickboxing.
Philsez:
Some martial artists have doubts about WC as a viable fighting art.
((I have doubts about individuals doing the art but not the art itself- the art involves the most comprehensive use of bone. ligaments, joints and muscle and brain and spirit that I know of- and I have gone the comparative route over time))
Ernie sez:
conditioning ,
in the street , sometimes you need to run jump ,slam people in the grill with objects
((No one can argue against conditioning for sporting matches.
Conditioning wont hurt on the street- but the street is a different matter. Some forms of sports conditioning can break the body down-if it is done all the time. Even pro boxers have different levels of conditoning- maintenance versus getting ready for a fight. Sporting types often get more injured in their sport than on the street. I wouldnt care to have Butkus’s knees and he was a terror in his time. Or the steroid filled well known grappler who was in Phoenix for a liver transplant. Or be Joe Frazier, Ali or Tyson-as much as I have admired their skills)
UF sez:
you and I both agree, I’m sure, that wing chun (whether it be TWC or any other lineage)…does not cover all the possible bases that a fight might entail.
((As far as I can tell no one posting reasonably often on this forum can speak for all of wing chun)))
((On knifefighter’s posts…
they are combinations of sarcasm and lack of sufficient knowledge of wing chun IMO. As has been pointed out -he does not know really what a centerline is- but he is not alone on that.
And how to develop that understanding or use it. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.
Wing chun is a very skillful art but skill development in wing chun
takes longer than basic punching, kicking or wrestling- but adding
on so called missing elements- arrests the development of wing chun skills which addresses different self defense contexts by developing the alert individual and adptive wing chun warrior.
One can develop street awareness without learning any martial art. Some development of common sense helps- dont stare down a hell’s angel warlord ina bikerbar- better still-dont go there . Learn some survivor protocol for parking garages and lots and isolated transportaion areas or late night pedestraun travel. Dont flash your money or gold adornments. Develop spatial sense and alertness. Dont spray yourself with pepper spray.WEigh the risks to your life if only a few dollars is involved. Let the macho fools strut and posture- if they are not about to hurt you. Extend your calm periods-minimize paranoia.Weigh the risks of going to an area where civil war or reigious strife is likely.And knifefu and gun fu in the US specially in urban areas and
some rural areas as well( Okie shotgun country for example) has changed the nature of self defense considerably—among many examples note the death of a California champion MT fighter not too long ago.
Off the soap box without checking typos.
joy
((No one can argue against conditioning for sporting matches.
Conditioning wont hurt on the street- but the street is a different matter. Some forms of sports conditioning can break the body down-if it is done all the time. Even pro boxers have different levels of conditoning- maintenance versus getting ready for a fight. Sporting types often get more injured in their sport than on the street. I wouldnt care to have Butkus’s knees and he was a terror in his time. Or the steroid filled well known grappler who was in Phoenix for a liver transplant. Or be Joe Frazier, Ali or Tyson-as much as I have admired their skills)
come on that is such a cop out
you might as well go the full distance and say better to never get up off the couch for fear of breaking a nail
what the heck does being in shape have to do with a liver transplant good lord man
take any of these out of shape masters and square them up with a athlete not even a fighter and they will probably get wrecked
stop going to such ridiculas extremes to create a false spin on things
just admit you don’t think being in tip top shape is such a important issue in your perception of street survival
every one is allowed there view no big deal
Ernie- watch it there, bud. I’m the curmudgeon around here.
ha ha
i came off strong but there are some things that just trip me out
sorry just must be upset from roid rage
but really it’s cool to have your own view but come on
Some responses to Ernie:
come on that is such a cop out
((not really- you missed my point))
you might as well go the full distance and say better to never get up off the couch for fear of breaking a nail
((Cmon- I said absolutely nothing of the kind))
what the heck does being in shape have to do with a liver transplant good lord man
((Cmon again-you missed my point . I didnt argue against being in shape. Nothing wrong with relevant conditioning. Do we need a catalog of training injuries? You listed yours in one or two of your posts. On a differnt point- The list of combative athtletes using chemical enhancement in order to have an edge in combat is getting larger-
Alzado(football), Graham(grappling?), Vargas(boxing) etc etc. The fearsome pro wrestler’s case that I alluded to is real.Combative sports folks get more injured in sports than on the street. I have a judo champion friend who has broken practically every bone in his body and has partial paralysis on one side of his face and really had not been ina street fight. In contrast- Wong Shon Leung when I met him
did not have apparent and permanent debilitating injuries from his wing chun fights-
though he had other life challenges. BTW some athletes with anti social tendencies are using guns-if you keep up with the news,.
Some recent posts on the forum havetaken ona hysterical social darwinian macho flavor on fighting.
Again- I repeat- I do not argue against being in the best shape that one can be in. )
take any of these out of shape masters and square them up with a athlete not even a fighter and they will probably get wrecked
((Who are what are you talking about? Masters should go around looking for a fight these days? Strange values.There are masters who are in shape and those who arent.Again- I didnt write a brief against getting in shape ))
stop going to such ridiculas extremes to create a false spin on things
((???))
just admit you don’t think being in tip top shape is such a important issue in your perception of street survival
((???!!! Read.Never argued against being in shape. Women and small folks can be in top shape but if they dont develop other attributes-they can be at unnecessary risk.))
every one is allowed there view no big deal
((Agreed- no big deal. I dont argue aginst your training regimen-
if it suits you-that is great. And if knifefighter thinks that wing chun is inferior…I chuckle- but I aint a missionary- I let people be))
This is simple. No martial art is created equal, no fighter is created equal. The person who trains the hardest is more likely to succeed. Use what works, there are no superior systems. Wing Chun is not the absolute best martial art out there, its just a really good one.
What makes you win in a real fight - intention. Intent on your actions. If you strike someone, strike them, do not hold back; for all you know they could kill you with their next hit.
Hey, not to mention tons of systems out there have science and structure and are combat tested. Like Choy Lay Fut, Taiji, Wing chun, Western Boxing, Muay Thai, Krav Maga just to name a few are all good martial arts that are proven to win fights.
Too much politics in kung fu. This is traditional thats not. Your mythilogical lineage is a myth, my mythicological lineage is not a myth because I have this painting that can barely be read says so. Who cares? The truth is yes wing chun does have its flaws. For one is way too **** political and argued over its freaking roots when no one can prove or disprove any theory.
I guess my point is, that I cross train in 2 major martial arts now. Wing Chun (Yip Man system) and Taijiquan (Yang style). Then I also supplement a few ground fighting styles like wrestling, judo, and jujutsu. I have a few years of okinawan training as well. And I use it all. I still use some external karate techniques that I learned almost 10 years ago, because they work. Thats the bottom line, it works so I use it. All of my internal attacks are usually taiji based movements and some are wing chun. All my nuetral techniques are definately Heavily Wing Chun based. Another thing, is that I could break each movement down and clarify where I learned it from. For example break each block, counter, attack, defensive movement I do and say if its wing chun, taiji, karate, judo or whatever and you know what? It would be pretty much a waste of time, because all that matters is that it works and that I won the fight.
joy
i got your point but you then add in extremes which lead the ‘’ ponit into a way out direction .
being in good shape has nothing to do with training injuries if your staying in shape you minimize injuries ,
my in juries came from extreme sports like down hill mountain biking , snow boarding and such
if i wasn’t in good shape i may never have been able to recover and actually improve as i age
skill is skill your right and i agree you don’t need to be in tip top shape to advance your skill
but were talking about the street were often you get caught off gaurd and you need to be in good enough shape to recover and or maintain
you need to run , jump climb what ever to survive a bad situation
you need to be able handle a rain of punches and kicks and still get up swinging
that is more a reality then the stretch of saying being in shape will lead to injuries
i think worse case not hope for best case
as for wong well he would get wrecked in todays arena as well
but at least he ran and swam and stayed in shape when he was fighting
he never had to face the caliber of fighter that is out today , not to say he couldn’t adapt he was a proven street fighter not like most others that just talk the talk
and for that i respect his acomplishments
but that was then and this is now
people are in better shape and fighting skill is out there
but like i said your view is your reality and mine is mine i don’t want to ruin phils thread
can/should we train for real fighting using WC alone
LIVE TRAINING…LIVE TRAINING…If you dont understand what that means (and no it isn’t “just sparring” although sparring is definitely “live”) then…well you dont know.
or do we need augmenataion from outside of WC?
The answer is already above. Those who train LIVE will know that whether youw ant to or not, a real LIVE opponent or training/sparring partner will take you “out of WC” WHETHER YOU WANT HIM TO OR NOT. The question is …are you ready for that?
I believe the answer should be: train wing chun.
Dhira’s remarks about possibly being taken out of the wing chun game whether you want it or not - have to be taken seriously.
Anything can happen in a fight.
KWJ
LIVE TRAINING…LIVE TRAINING…If you dont understand what that means (and no it isn’t “just sparring” although sparring is definitely “live”) then…well you dont know.
Hopefully you were refering to some one else if not I don’t think you got the gist of that statement. I clearly understand. Like I said before WC is one of the tools in my tool box, not the only one. It would be a sad carpenter with only one tool.
The answer is already above. Those who train LIVE will know that whether you want to or not, a real LIVE opponent or training/sparring partner will take you “out of WC” WHETHER YOU WANT HIM TO OR NOT. . .
Noo . . . for real??? 
Training wc for real fighting
From day one: SLT/footwork/punching/kicking/learn to defend
vs. the opponent from a non-contact distance (ie. he straight punches LIKE A BOXER-you defend)/start learning infight contact reflex range (dan chi sao, pak sao, lop sao drills - SOON to be followed by breaking these down to real applications with a partner throwing punches or whatever/
Learn some self defense moves: ie- he bear hugs or headlocks - you react with whatever/start learning longer range entry and attack footwork that leads to striking and/or contact with his arms/learn some basic counters to takedowns: ie.-sprawl/ start learning some unarmed defense moves vs. a knife attack/
More about chi sao: double arm luk sao (rolling, switching, coming back to the centerline when taken off)/more punching drills(including boxing hooks, jabs, uppercuts)/more about kicking-different types of front kicks/more about defending hook punches/defending rear front kicks/defending this, defending that/
More about chi sao (making openings and attacking - as well as defending those very kind of attacks ie.- tan vs. lop)/
learning some basic ground grappling positions and escapes/
some submissions (ie.-double wristlock, basic rear choke)…
Start using punching mitts/kicking shields and bags/doing plenty of stretching, pushups, situps, back bridges, aerobics…IN CLASS…RIGHT FROM DAY ONE/after about 3-4 different defenses have been learned from x position (stance)…ie.- he straight punches, he hook punches, he rear front kicks, he attacks with a double leg shoot…
AND you have to DIFFERENTIATE by not knowing which one of those four moves are coming in advance…you must react appropriately to each (you’re learning how to SEE what’s coming and deal with it)- to be followed by you learning how to attack even though he might throw one of those four or some other reaction to your attack (YOU’RE STARTING TO LEARN HOW TO SPAR) very lightly- to be followed with more and more contact and protective gear…and more and more moves being used/
Such as dealing with attempted bullrush grabs and takedowns/
haymakers/rear crosses - while you learn more about high/low attacking and defending/ on-the-toes explosive footwork/when to retreat/when and how to sidestep/how-when to throw roundhouse kicks, sidekicks/some sweeps and takedowns..
Just one man’s opinion about one possible way to go about training wing chun for real fighting…
Not cast in stone, of course…just some ideas ABOUT MAKIN’ IT REAL…right from day one.
The above could all be done inside of 1.5 years of first starting, IMO…To be followed more and more with in-the-clinch skills (elbows,knees,throws)…and more and more standing and groundgrappling moves, positions, escapes, reversals an submissions…along with more and more chi sao, wooden dummy moves and applications, etc.