http://www.lo-man-kam.de/galerie05.htm
:eek:
Yes?
Wow
Red5Angel - of all the people on all the websites, I thought this page of mpegs would provoke a comment from you.
Does this not raise an eyebrow from anyone?
Was thinking of RR’s “I’ve seen bad students from good instructors” comment.
Each of these mpegs made my eyes bulge. (Errr… you are clicking the yellow badge links, right?)
:rolleyes:
still checking them out, it just sounded like you wanted to say something 
How do these guys root with such a high stance!?
Well,
Flapping arms and high stance… it’s the crane influence right?
Wing Chun: a different variant in every club. It’s kinda funny. I know a number of people that practise Shotokan Karate from different clubs - all practise the same way and look the same when running through drills etc.
Is anyone able to post an mpeg of what they consider to be good Wing Chun? Most of what I find on the net is… different… to the Wing Chun I practise.
Duncan
guess everyones different then
took a while to get those clips working though :eek:
david
RE: the clips
Disclaimer: This is not intended to be a Sifu-worship post.
Much like many of the people here who said they gave up what they were studying to learn under a great teacher, the instructor in the school from the clips, Marc, came from another Wing Chun lineage, but gave it up and started from the beginning to learn with Sifu Lo Man Kam. I am not 100% sure, but I am fairly certain that it was the day after he had won the international kuoshu leitai (full contact sparring) championships in Taipei (1998, if my memory serves me well).
So what did he see in Sifu Lo’s approach? While I am only guessing, I would figure that it was emphasis on fundamentals, a focus on principles, yet a flexibility in teaching and application. Follow the principles in training, you will not always end up with the same product because people are different! Just like if you teach two artists the fundamentals of watercolor painting, they will most likely come up with two different approaches and styles that may be equally aesthetically pleasing. Or if you give the same ingredients to two different master chefs, they will come up with different dishes that will still taste wonderful (ok, I’ve watched one too many Iron Chef episodes). And I can tell you that I have come across far more variety among the students in Sifu Lo’s school than in the dozens of schools I’ve visited, and the several hundreds of people I have rolled with.
That said, in the three clips I looked at, I see aspects of Sifu Lo’s approach: correct arm positions, mobility, and fluidity. Even rooting-- look how the knees are bent, feet parallel, and sitting back in the horse; and if you drew a straight line between their feet, it goes toward the opponent’s centerline as bridge arms are established.
I will also point you to Duncan Leung’s website, which many people have a fit over: http://members.tripod.com/~Wing_Chun/ Look at the video clips there, and you will see something different. Is it fundamentally sound? I do believe so.
aelward said - “I see aspects of Sifu Lo’s approach: correct arm positions, mobility, and fluidity. Even rooting-- look how the knees are bent, feet parallel, and sitting back in the horse”
What about economy of motion? Elbows in?
My first thought was that it looked like karate/wing chun.
The movements look very large and open.
Very, very, VERY nice site. I especially enjoyed the clips of Lo sifu’s teaching (second section). My only complaint is that I kept having to restart my browser every few clips.
You guys are nitpicky. Yes, there are obvious flaws in some of the action clips. For instance, I saw a lot of extraneous arm movement in the elbow defense. Sometimes there seemed to be extraneous footwork, moving back to defend, then move forward but your opponent stays in the same place? Unrealistic. And the defender seems over-excited, perhaps contributing to the flapping arms syndrome. BUT, still a very nice site considering what else is out there on the net! Much better than say, that Wing Tsun clip we were looking at a few days back - which I still enjoyed. I think it’s been hashed out already that whenever you make a clip with your students, the attacks are unrealistic. True also in this case, but better than a lot of others I’ve seen.
It seems that no one that has trained outside of China demonstrates the cleaness of movement, deep understanding of basics that I’ve seen from the Chinese masters. Closeness to Yip Man and his senior students may be the factor here. Just that one clip of Lo sifu performing the Huen Sao from Sil lim tao, increased my understanding. Lo’s mastery is also evident from the other clips.
Now, for the wierd: what kind of ready stance are they using in the action clips??? Looks like a cross between the Cheung front stance, and the JKD ready stance. You’ll notice that in most of the clips, the defender is waiting with the back heel raised off of the floor. Well, it’s different from what I have seen before.
-FJ
Fa_jing said - “You guys are nitpicky”
You have to be man, how do you think you get precision and accuracy, fluidity of motion, etc? You have to be nitpicky at all times, paying close attention to where you are and what you are doing, eventually it all becomes second nature but you have to keep hammering away at it.
Red5Angel - your comments were correct regarding economy of motion, and elbows in. I just am against the whole tone of this thread - I mean, the practioners are decent, if not masterful, there may be some other influence like JKD, we have no idea 'cause we can’t read German (help here!) And the second section was really nice as I stated, even the photo galleries were nice. Nothing wrong with constructive criticism, but let’s give credit where credit is due - it’s a nice looking site, and Lo impresses fully. One area where I would criticize is the use of sashes for even the beginners - goes against my philosophy, but hey, some people like to dress up!
-FJ
OK, I’ll say it before anyone else does, “dress up and make believe” 
point by point:
Here is a step by step analysis of the defender’s motions.
Video one, step by step
-
Intercetion with left fak sao. Fak sao elbow should be extended because it measures your long bridge.
-
left Lan, right da- In lan sao, the elbow is out. In this case, it is lifted as well to hit under the bridge.
-
right lap sao- starting from fak position, it is covering the upper gates.
-
left neck pull into right elbow. Okay, the elbow is out.
Video two, step by step
-
right jum sao-- the elbow is out, and arm straight, plus I would personally never use it against a roundhouse kick.
-
left fak sao-- covers the mid and upper gates as you enter
-
left inside lap sao-- elbow is more or less in
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right sweeping leg (biu jee form)- the left arm is out; it would probably be better to have the left hand placed against the opponent’s right shoulder or lower back for better leverage
Video three:
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left tan sao, elbow is in; w/knee guard
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left pak sao with right punch. the body is not aligned, but the elbows are in.
-
left hand press to shoulder with right na sao to take down; right foot is sweeping (biu jee form application)
Some of these motions are not executed with precision; then again, could you so the same at that speed?
Now I know what you mean by “floppy” hands, and I will have to say that it is completely acceptable in the framework which I studied. It is called long-bridging, as opposed to elbow in short-bridge.
Is it good Wing Chun? Maybe sloppy at that speed, but given that Marc has plenty of fighting experience, who is to question its efficacy other than through trial and error? The question is, can his students apply the TECHNIQUES (i.e., physical expression of principles) that he teaches to defend themselves?
Can YOU use the techniques that your Sifu teaches you to defend yourself? Before you say yes, have you actually tried against someone from another style (in a controlled or non-controlled environment) with an equal amount of training? As a test for people who were overconfident in their skills, I have taken people with 1-5 years of Wing Chun training and fed them quick jabs, and they were still getting hit. And I suck at boxing. They faired even worse when hooks were added to the fray.
Fa_jing - they may be nice guys, and some of them may even be able to fight, we were just discussing what we are observing in the pictures and videos. Its a good website but the wingchun just looks a little sloppy.
Aelward - hopefully we all mix it up a little in time, with each other as well as other styles…
Off-topic: As my Sifu likes to say, realistic fighting “isn’t always pretty.” And if someone can’t deal with quick jabs or hooks from an amatuer after a moderate amount of study, you need to examine the teaching approach.
That’s why I like my teacher’s approach - because the answer to
"Can YOU use the techniques that your Sifu teaches you to defend yourself? Before you say yes, have you actually tried against someone from another style (in a controlled or non-controlled environment) with an equal amount of training? "
is a resounding YES, in my case. Although, it might not look pretty, see above.
-FJ
They look like they can fight, especially:
http://www.lo-man-kam.de/videos/technik05.mpg
The first 4 clips appear more like Karate though. Perhaps it is because the goal was to showcase a specific technique, so it appeared more recipe like. Too much open arm movement and not enough economy of motion.
Technik7 is a nice fast entry, just lose the posing at the end.
And clip 9 shows these guys have a great sense of humor as well.
Originally posted by red5angel
Fa_jing - they may be nice guys, and some of them may even be able to fight, we were just discussing what we are observing in the pictures and videos. Its a good website but the wingchun just looks a little sloppy.
Aelward - hopefully we all mix it up a little in time, with each other as well as other styles…
Lo Sifu
I wouldn’t be too quick to make any blanket statements about Lo Sifu’s Wing Chun. Not only is the guy highly regarded in Taiwan and Hong Kong by martial artists, the police, and the military, he has taught a myriad and been doing Wing Chun, free of North American marketing gimmickry, for generations. Moreover, he doesn’t run off at the mouth about how “great” or “authentic” he is. In fact, you would be hard pressed to get much information from the man at all.
If you see anything in his videos that looks strange, maybe you should look again.
hypnoticaly stunning and subversive
i have to agree with Alpha…lo sifu was a direct student of yip man…if you had the fortune of learning from him ,lineage wise, it would be like learning from leung sheung. so for someone who is a student of a student of a student of a student (whats that 4 generations from yip man?) i feel it might be hard to make an honest assesment of his skills. lo sifu started learning in 1954 if im not mistaken..perhaps a little before,…he was already at the school when wsl joined. lo sifu is yip mans nephew as well.
just because someone “looks” sloppy doesnt mean jack. ive seen ken chung students who dont have to actualy go into the deep stance to generate huge amounts of force…so if i was looking at a video of them i would say…"hey that looks sloppy ..look how shallow his horse is "…but in real life it works out that you cant tell what is gong on internaly with masters…