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Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
21

“Economy of Motion, Elbows In”

r5a writes:
> What about economy of motion? Elbows in?

How would you define economy of motion? I would say it using the least amount of energy to accomplish the most. It is not a concretely fixed position of hands, since everone has different body types. It is a fallacy to believe that just because Master X has to move his hand one inch to accomplish his goals that all of his students will as well. Economy of motion is an idea-- along with the other concepts of Wing Chun-- are a compass that point us in the right direction and let us find our own way; not a set of directions that tell you how to get from point A to point B. To do so would contrain the art, and turn us all into cookie-cutter practitioners.

The second section of Sifu Lo’s form is more like “standard” Yip Man Wing Chun, and less like Sifu Ken Chung’s (who I believe uses very minimal motion). It is, conceptually speaking, SNT’s long bridge section, where you measure your maximum reach to the sides (sat sao), front (biu sao), back (ho gum sao), down (bian gum sao), and frontal distance between the waist and shoulders (mok sao and jao sao). For all of these aforementioned motions, the elbow are out and the arms straight. Yes, the elbows are out.

Now r5a, you can criticize all you want, but if you want to be constructive, you can provide what YOU would do in the circumstances, and maybe even put a video clip online for people to evaluate. And when some people slam you, you will realize that not everyone believes the same interpretation of the “truth” as you. It is not to say you are wrong, just that you express WC principles differently.

22

A couple of observations - I haven’t seen them all yet.

a) There didn’t seem to be any kicks used against kicks.
b) In some cases a straight punch could have been used yet the counter seemed to be the extension of the arm (look at 08)
The defender left himself very, very open to counter attack if the original was attacking by drawing in the opponent.
c) Guard position didn’t seem amenable to small hand movements
and looked a little tense -

For the experienced guys - why use that type of guard? (it looked a little tense) where would chisao training have helped with that kind of guard?

The hand movements looked a little too slow - I would have thought an experienced WC guy could have taken advantage of the long hand movement.

These are personal observations from a novice.

23

Ah come on!

We don’t have to be more “catholic” than the pope and criticise every little details about a particular school. I think that they are pretty good from what I have seen.Their focus is not on rigidity,that’s all! :wink:

24

RE: Sifu Lo

Sifu Lo says that he joined in 1950, and his handwritten listing of Yip Man students places him in the REstaurant Union association, fourth after Lee Man, Leung Sheung, and Lok Yiu. I have not verified this elsewhere, but I know that Yip Chun’s biography of Yip Man dates are wrong with regard to when LMK started (1954).

In a biography of WSL (http://www.cnvt.com/mysifu3.htm), he states that he first came to Yip Man’s school in 1953, around Chinese New Year when most students were not present. He made short order of some beginning students, and was told to fight LMK, who YM referred to as being “someone with deeper martial understanding.” Apparently, WSL beat him as well; according to TST’s account on the VTAA website, Yip Bo Ching “took care of Wong,” and Wong joined the school.

As for nitpicking, Sifu Lo is one of the biggest nitpickers out there. He expects 100% precision in forms and applications at his school. On the other hand, he allows for a lot of flexibility. And doesn’t set down exact curriculum for his student’s schools. As long as they follow a certain framework (SNT, basic chi sao, turning, free chi sao, CK, BJ, dummy, weapons), they are given a free reign in how to teach applications. For this reason, some of his students aren’t as stringent as he is in teaching. I have been guilty of this (but actually, working out with some of Sifu Ken Chung’s students motivated me to really go back to basics and fundamentals).

He can be very critical of other Wing Chun people, but at the same time, he does not talk about himself. When I first went there, I had no idea he was the nephew of Yip Man, or even a student of Yip Man, until someone told me two months into training. He teaches openly and freely, because, in his words, “it is better to have several good students teaching abroad, than just one old man in Taiwan.”

But for those among you who think the earlier video clips were a travesty, be sure to check out his book “Police Kung Fu” (there is a link from the mainpage of KF Online); you will see how far Wing Chun principles can be manipulated, and you can all b*tch and moan about how it isn’t Wing Chun (which it wasn’t supposed to be).

25

Aelward

I am planning to visit Lo Sifu during Chinese New Year. With luck he will be around. Any idea if he will be in Taipei then or does he leave the island at this time?

26

Some of you might want to dig up pics of Lo sifu throwing hard chopsticks into boards. Impressive throwing power witha light object like a chopstick.

Forget the bull in a china shop threads and foot in mouth disease.. Can you guys do what Lo sifu can do.? Urge you not to be in the way when he throws.

27

Re: point by point:

Hi Aelward,

Good analysis.


Can YOU use the techniques that your Sifu teaches you to defend yourself?

Yes. At times, I’ve found applications in chis sao immediately after learning a technique. This said, no technique works all the time, or we’d be wise to use just that one when it counts. :slight_smile:

Why was it do you suppose, that your boxing jabs were so effective? Were the subjects in any sort of ready position, for example with a wu sao up? If there’s one thing Wing Chun should be good for, it’s dealing with a jab. Hooks, however, are another matter. They require a lot more experience it seems.

Regards,

28

why are they getting hit?

Grendel writes:
> Why was it do you suppose, that your boxing jabs were so
> effective? Were the subjects in any sort of ready position, for
> example with a wu sao up?

I should start by saying that in every case, it was with someone who was overconfident with their skill, which is why I proposed the experiment. People who trusted their teachers SO much that they didn’t actually test to see if the techniques worked, or at least how they could make them work; in a handful of the cases, they were told that their techniques were “too deadly” to practice against other styles.

Yes, these people’s guards were up, but covering only up to the chin. success often relates to the range-- if they are already within range of the jab, the chance of hitting increases. If you have to close first, the success drops. On the other hand, circling footwork, fading back footwork, and feints all have high hit percentages. The easiest targets are all those who have been told to enter with chain punches (“if the guy is being pushed back, he won’t be able to mount an attack”).

29

RE: alpha dog

Unfortunately, Sifu Lo is rarely in Taipei during Chinese New Year. He usually uses that time to go teach seminars abroad. We are trying to get him to do Las Vegas and San Francisco next year :slight_smile:

30

Re: RE: Lo Man Kam Seminars

John,

Please let us know when he is in the area (SF) and if his seminars will be open to the rest of us. It would be quite interesting for me personally to see and feel one of the old masters at work.

regards,

David Williams

Originally posted by aelward
Unfortunately, Sifu Lo is rarely in Taipei during Chinese New Year. He usually uses that time to go teach seminars abroad. We are trying to get him to do Las Vegas and San Francisco next year :slight_smile:

31

Aelward,
I think if you go into any WC school anywhere in the world it would be easy to nitpick. It does not follow that the WC is bad because someone finds something different.

I liked what I saw but I also saw things which I think other WC guys and other stylists could take advantage of. IMHO this is always the case.

The problem with videos is that they show a brief moment - they don’t show what a teacher teaches to the class nor as you point out what the teacher corrects.

best wishes to you!

32

Well, thanks for the replies…

Some interesting responses.

IMO - the video footage on the first page still sucks. High stances, arms flapping out wide, a blend of Karate, WC and JKD. Each to his own, but it’s not my cup of tea.

I just find it interesting how, whatever the lineage, WC around the world looks so different. I taped myself training with some friends and, on looking at the footage, said: “Urgh… my footwork’s awful.”

I’m sure none of us are as good as we’d like to think :slight_smile:

Someone spoke about their WC students of 1-5 years having trouble with jabs and esp. hooks. These are attacks we practise in pretty much every lesson. A couple, well three, people I train with have boxing experience. What they hate more than anything else is being smothered. They can put out very powerful jabs and hooks but don’t like this distance being closed to a few inches. There first reaction is to try and hug - a response that isn’t suited to an opponet prepared to utilise low kicks (to ankle, shin, knee cap) and man geng sau with knees (to groin and stomach).

Most people in the class have a little Karate experience and some have done TKD for a few years. I’ve not tried my Wing Chun in a ‘live’ situation with other Kung Fu styles.

I have dealt with a couple of hooks on the street, but I can’t really count this as practicle experience. The guy was very drunk and punched like a drunk (ie. his punch was way off target and followed the biggest arc I’ve ever seen). His second hook was equally as ‘rough’ only with almost no power.

Alpha Dog - I went back and had another look at the mpegs as you suggested. The first page of footage… it still sucks! A couple of those guys were big - so I wouldn’t particularly want to face them - but I still thought their motions were un-Wing-Chun-like.

Like I said - each to his own. Was just interested to see what others here thought.

Duncan

Ps. Just a quick note. It seems every branch of WC and every other martial art (JKD, Ninjustsu, Jujitsu, etc) has been shown to police forces and combat units. This information appears on every arts’ main sites. Doesn’t validate a martial art in the slightest.

33

I think the videos show people that are good at what they do. There are a couple of sequences that are questionable, notable number 2, where the movements are a bit too large and sweeping to be classic wing chun - but like someone else said it is done at speed and sometimes we all (well me anyway) do make bigger movements than are necessary in the heat of battle (or in this case the heat of a demo).

This is nitpicking but why does demo 2 feature chopping a kicking foot/shin with your hand? I would have thought that was a bad idea. Also I don’t want to reopen the debate but I notice he steps back to avoid the kick - so presumably this guy is not bound by some convention that you never step back - good for him.

I also thought number 8 leaves himself a bit open.

They also like sweeps don’t they.

Much better than I could do though and better than most stuff that gets posted on the net. I applaud anyone willing to show what they do openly - actions speak louder than words - nice.

34

Originally posted by 12345
I I notice he steps back to avoid the kick - so presumably this guy is not bound by some convention that you never step back - good for him.

He steps back?:eek: What could he possibly have been thinking??

B&B – you take me too literally. I don’t mean “go back, look at the tapes, and you will suddenly change your mind.” Looking again would be make a more concerted effort to find out how Lo teaches Wing Chun.

Cheers

35

Aelward - no need to get mad, or frustrated, its what we do here. Looking at any videos we all look for certain things we would or would not do…

As for economy of motion you said -

"How would you define economy of motion? I would say it using the least amount of energy to accomplish the most. It is not a concretely fixed position of hands, since everone has different body types. It is a fallacy to believe that just because Master X has to move his hand one inch to accomplish his goals that all of his students will as well. Economy of motion is an idea-- along with the other concepts of Wing Chun-- are a compass that point us in the right direction and let us find our own way; not a set of directions that tell you how to get from point A to point B. To do so would contrain the art, and turn us all into cookie-cutter practitioners. "

I agree with using the least amount of energy, which includes the distance moved plus the energy used to accomplish a particular goal. It may be a fallacy to hope a teachers students can do what he does, but most students dont put the time or energy thier instructors do or have into it. If you did, you coudl accomplish the same thing at some point whether you may have to work harder to get thier or not. Once you are there it becomes the same thing. The “ideas” of wingchun are being interpreted to loosely in my opinion. It sounds nice to say that each and every person makes it his own but I think that idea has been taken too far. I think to even expres sit in that way is going down the wrong road, since in the beginning you must have faith in your teachings and your teacher until you truly understand what it is you are learning. Its not about cookie cutter its about doing things correctly, and understanding them thoroughly before deciding what is best for you.

36

Not to bad, just different than the way I do it. I saw alot of take downs, not to much punching (hand strikes) or follow ups. There are so many application drills in wing chun, so which ones you use is up to you. The way I learned was the drills are first pre-arranged then random. It looks to me these drills are pre-arranged. It takes alot of practice to pull off applications in the random setting. They still did a good job, especially if they were in a random setting. Someone mentioned something about jabs and being in the man sau/wu sau position. I feel very confident in this position regardless of distance, but with my hands down and the distance is to close I’m skeptical. I also have a little problem with hooks.

37

Does anyone know why in the first page of clips they have a raised rear heel in the ready stance?

-FJ

38

Who knows who knows red5angel knows

39

No anger

r5a writes:

> Aelward - no need to get mad, or frustrated, its what we do
> here. Looking at any videos we all look for certain things we
> would or would not do…

r5a: no anger or frustration at all on my part, only amusement. In all honesty, I would not advocate using the applications that they came up with in those videos myself. But who am I to say:

> The “ideas” of wingchun are being interpreted to loosely in my
> opinion.

Then again, who are YOU to evaluate?

Instead of just saying “that is wrong” because of whatever reason, why don’t you also be more constructive and offer an idea of what YOU would do, and why that approach is better for YOU? In fact, why not put a video clip of yourself up? It takes a lot more bravery, and open-mindedness to put yourself up to public scrutiny as these people have.

40

aelward sez

In fact, why not put a video clip of yourself up?

A video clip? Oh I am so excited about wing chun.