Earth Dragon, Chinese Teachers and Sifu

I was away the past few days and only read a few pages of the Chinese teachers thread but noticed you asked why you call your teacher “sifu.”

Funny thing is, all my American teachers requested to be called this and after about a week my present teacher (born, raised and trained in China – though his good stuff was imported from China, having paid for the teachers to come over and host them) kindly asked me to stop calling him sifu – it made him uncomfortable.

He said sifu is like a father tittle and should only be used if you are living with the teacher and the teacher kind of takes care of you while you train.

He prefers to be called Mr. Chan. I call him my master though, because he is the first person that I have met that the title truly fits. His skill is such that to me, anything less would be an insult … but it’s funny how he doesn’t care either way.

Anyway, when someone’s attacking you and their fist is coming in it goes beyond American, Chinese, ect., it goes down to the HUMANITY … what works?

My master has now developed his own system, E-Chuan. It has a lot of Ba Gua and HSing-I in their but also Grandmaster Lui’s pole footwork and his own ground fighter. I’ve never thought of it like this before but it is a true AMERICAN art developed by a Chinese man. It takes in everything good and dispells everything that is worthless. It is open to change, welcomes it and actually constantly searches to find its own weaknesses and beat them instead of hiding them under the blanket.

All that matters: Can you kick a$$?

With Barnes and Nobles, and the Internet book sellers, there’s more than enough history to be obtained. I don’t go all the way into Chinatown to study Lau Tzu, I go to learn how to beat good fighters… though I do get history sometimes as a way of explianing something here and there and apreciate it … it’s just icing on the cake and some down time to rest between drills.

Interesting insights. Some things are definatley just universal, like a punch to the head. You don’t talk to your opponent while fighting

If it is true that great internal martial arts come down to whether or not you can kick a$$, then it is a shame that they are being perpetuated. There is level of performance much higher than that. Why be so limited?

It is interesting that you should mention humanity…what is humanity? How do we define our own humanity? Is it through competitive success? Through domination?

If when faced with a punch to the face the best we can do is hit back, what then? Why even bother to practice? It makes the whole mess of martial arts into something totally boring, archaic, and practically useless.

Originally posted by shaolinboxer
[B]If it is true that great internal martial arts come down to whether or not you can kick a$$, then it is a shame that they are being perpetuated. There is level of performance much higher than that. Why be so limited?

It is interesting that you should mention humanity…what is humanity? How do we define our own humanity? Is it through competitive success? Through domination?

If when faced with a punch to the face the best we can do is hit back, what then? Why even bother to practice? It makes the whole mess of martial arts into something totally boring, archaic, and practically useless. [/B]

Nicely put. I have nothing to add. :stuck_out_tongue:

long but important … to me

I understand exactly what you are getting at.

Know this, my introduction to martial arts was at the age of four and the first thing my sensei did was teach me how to sit quietly – actually kneel – fold my hands in my lap and just chill out. I did that for a while before he showed me my first kata, ect. Maybe I’ll scan some photos one day.

That school was very focused on discipline, I even had to show my sensei my report cards which were never too good and had “growing in self discpline” marked with a U(nsatisfactory) which no ine oculd understand since I was so disciplined about martial arts.

On top of that my mom dragged me to church every sunday until she died when I was 18. That brought a lot of questions I sought answers to and studied budhism and Toaism because they always interested me anyway; did the LSD thing in college, followed the dead, camped out with the Rainbow coalition, the full-on hippie scene and learned a lot. Basically learned that God is internalized and my mind/viewpoint/intention creates my life, ect.

On the otherside, can’t think of a single street fight I lost as a kid (except one when I was 8 or 9 and thr kid 11 or 12) but somehow thought my training was lacking something.

Bounced around with Wing CHun and Hung Gar until I met my S Mantis teacher and fought about 3 times a week. I learned that the aproach I took before was full of $hit … good, great for discipline and building a foundation, but leaving me over convident to face a real violent situation.

Complete with who I am – or at least happy with where I am now but wise enough to know I’m still growing/learning/experiencing, ect – I know want reality in my training.

My master stresses health and training smarter, but a MARTIAL artist has to be able to fight. My ears always go up when I hear too much focus on chilling out and alinging the planets, ect. I don’t need martial arts for that. I can study yoga, go to church, ect.

I am confident to say, I am one of the easiest going, layed back person you’ll ever meet – curtious to a fault. But what do you suggest I do if I’m down town with my girl and some guy bumps into her, calls her a dirty ho, and when I ask him to apologize he shoves me and BEGINS to make an offense motion?

Something like this hasn’t happened in a long time. About two weeks ago some wise ass called me out of the McDOnald’s bathroom insisting he was first after I got the key from the manager and when I asked him to repeat what he wanted because I couldn’t believe it, he said something punk-a$$ish and actually put his hands on me.

I gave him a “you’re fu(king rediculous” smile and said, go ahead and use it, just don’t touch me.

I wanted to not cause a scene, but at the same time show him I won;t take his **** and maybe bait him a little bit, because I’m not beyond beating a wise a$$ a little bit.

I could have easily cross his arms up, decked him in the face, kicked his legs out and either slammed his head into the sink or kick him while he was down a few times depending on how he landed. But that’s childish and can lead to a gun or knife (which I had) being pulled.

So, to me, MARTIAL arts is empowering one to trully be themselves what that may be. Confident to do and say what they want. When I see someone being a ******wood and I’m in the mood, I’ll say it. When I saw teenagers throwing **** as a fenced in dog I gave them a piece of my mind, ect.

I see too many martial artists – at the two TKD schools in my neighborhood – who simply can’t defend themselves. I can see it in their eye and the way they carry themselves. That is fine. Just not the road I am taking and so I found a place where I can train to meet my needs.

You can train at the same place and not feel that way. Because you get out what you put in and what you want. Some students are great fencers, all are strong.

But none of us do forms, none of us where sashes or swing fake weapons. We train with 10 or 12 oz gloves, full gear and try to keep it as real as possible without really hurting someone. This to me is martial arts … it just happens to be internal.

On the other hand, there is a park around the corner from my master school where people are doing Taiji … God, not only can’t they fight, but they break tons of principles as far as pushing angles, knees waaaaaaay over there front toes, ect. They are dancers not martial artist.

It’s too easy to say “we are too dangerous”, or “we are too high level to play with you” or “this fighting style is about not fighting.”

Don’t worry if you’re too dangerous – I’ll still try.

Forgive my low level, I’d still like to try. And if you are a very high ranking master, please, ley me give you $50 for the 5 minute pushhands lesson. If you beat me good it will be worth it.

If your style is “not about fighting” or better yet “beating (beacuse this is what I want” … then just get the hell out of here – you may have bought into, but I’m embarrassed for you. You can’t get to that high level without fighting. How do you know what works, what doesn’t work?

I am, and probbaly always will be, looking for a better way, testing a better way. To do that, you have to get dirty sometimes … you even have to lose a few confrontations here and there and take your lumps. It’s not for everybody. But don’t confuse being scared or unwilling to do it with a “higher than though” martial art attitude.

If you are already there, please excuse my rudeness. You are better than me and I mean no offense. I’m just trying to get there the only way I know how.

that was a cool read.

The Purpose of Humanity.

Well, being Christian, I’d say doing things wihch make the Big G look good. As a man, I’d say “To crush your enemies, to see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentations of their women.”

I do martial arts because I need to be able to whoop someone’s ass before they stomp a mudhole in mine. Is this wrong? Can’t say I’d care too much about that when I’m on my way to the hospital.

What is anything about? Ask Conan.

Evolution fist,
I will answer your question simply… I call him sifu out of protocol and respect. I did live with my sifu, at his school and he is chinese so the “father” relationship was there to boot.

technically, there’s two terms for “sifu” in chinese. One is Si (teach) fu (father). The other si (teach) fu (homonynm to father but not the father character). The second just designate an instructor.

It is customary to refer someone you hold in esteem or someone who is a professional as the second type of sifu. In movie on Wong Fei Hong, wong fei hong is often referred to as Wong sifu by other people out of respect. but if you read the chinese subtitle, the “sifu” used is the 2nd type of “sifu”.

I attached a pic of the two chinese version of “si fu” for your information.

Also, in the chinese resturant business, the seniro chief is alway refer to as “da si fu”, the senior “instructor” (which in this case substitute for the usage of word, chief). it is only used out of respect and no one is really calling him, teacher/father. I am sure an average American instructor who is opening a kungfu/karate school wouldn’t know any difference, so when they demand you to call him “sifu” that means “teacher/father”. but, that is not how it is always used in chinese.

Wandering monk,
Intersting post. I do have a comment to you…as far as my qigong teacher says, “sifu” pronunced (see foo) means spouse in mandarin, and that the correct pronunciation for teacher/ father is actually “shrfu” pronunced (sure foo) However the lazy american way we say sifu, like kung fu instead of gongfu, karate instead of kara te

Originally posted by EarthDragon
Wandering monk,
Intersting post. I do have a comment to you…as far as my qigong teacher says, “sifu” pronunced (see foo) means spouse in mandarin, and that the correct pronunciation for teacher/ father is actually “shrfu” pronunced (sure foo) However the lazy american way we say sifu, like kung fu instead of gongfu, karate instead of kara te

sifu = Cantonese pronounciation
shrfu = Mandarin pronounciation

Sifu

We use the term Sifu liberally. All the Chinese use the term as we westerners would use the term Coach or Teacher. No elevated honour, no mysticism. Granted, we model our school on the family, with Sifu, the older brothers/sisters, younger brothers/sisters and “children” being the raw novices, first yearlings. Being that we are a primarially Chinese school, as a westerner, you just go with the flow.

Also, I’ve heard a good Chef in a restaurant called Sifu when he comes to say hello to our table. I’ve heard the repairman at the temple called Sifu in respect of his trades ability.

So, seems like theres lots of room for interpretation..

Greetings..

I like the term LaoShi, “old teacher”.. it is the formal term for teacher in China.. but, more adequately describes me, an “old” teacher.. no mysticism, no heirarchy.. just me sharing the experiences with those that find some value in them.. and, considering all the things i have been called, Bob works best for me..

Be well..

Most of my master’s disciples (all Chinese) refer to him as LaoShi (in my mind it almost sounds lile lousy which I find funny because he’s far from).

The newer non-Chinese students simply call him Mr. Chan.

Earth Dragon, my main point with you is not over what you call your teacher – a rose by any other name, blah, blah, blah – but the undertones that you have to be Chinese or completely embrace their culture to obtain skill.

Now, I just happen to love all things Asian. The delivery guy for the Chinese food and sushi must trip out when they come over. The front door opens up into a nice sized training hall, about a bedroom and a half. My trophies are on a shelf, boxing gloves hanging on the wall, a painting I painted of a bonzai, some calligraphy, a few pictures of me as a kid in gi, my new gi, my old black belt and white belt on the wall, ect. I read the Tao Te Ching regulalrly, as of Sun Tzu and Chueng Tzu.

But I also know a lot of people out here on Long Island who really want to be monks, watch Kung Fu movies constantly, take their weapons to the park and make spectacles of themselves, are GREAT liondancers and perform out — even for the Dali Lama a few years ago. I can say with complete confidence: not a fighter a mong them … and they are proud of the 2 or 3 Chinese kids they have recruited into the group for legitamacy.

Of course, the best martial artist I have ever met is Chinese. I’m sure he couldn’t have learned under his top teachers if he wasn’t Chinese. I’m glad he’s so open with me.

That’s prety much it.

It doesn’t matter or affect me if you think the way you do more. I think the idea that martial artist should chant as someone strikes out at them, or even more so, NOT TEST THEIR SKILLS, is poison.

Soldiers must shoot their guns and get familiar with their weapons. Pilots must fly their planes and test their bombing. But martial artists – who are supposed to be deadly with their hands, feet and small hidden bladed/blunt force weapons – are supposed to do forms and chant:rolleyes:

Evolutionfist, allow me to eleborate
I think perhaps as I had said in response to that post is that what I said was blown way out of porportion. I am a tradtionalist whole heartedly and I have many years in the matial arts and FOR ME I have always seeked to find the source, in kung fu that happens to be chinese.
I have spent the last 14 years translating my system from its chinese characters to english. I feel it neccesary to learn the language in order to have a firm grasp on the art as a whole.

I was critisized, called names and chastized because these are my beliefs, and again TO ME to really know and understand the art in which you are spending your life learning you must learn the culture behind it. I have never met a serious sifu that did not know the names of his techniques in chinese. However I was attacked by a few of the americanized schools and thier students. They argue that you dont have to be chinese to fight or be good in kung fu. I agree however, I find that to be really good you must understand much more than fighting.
This is just a basic elementary part of kung fu and not many people have taken the time to learn all there is to know, heck some people still think Tai Chi is for old people. They fail to set goals to surpass, they simply think of the yang and not the yin.
I am older now and probably wont ever have to fight again, so my focus has shifted to qigong and medicine. I seriously doubt that any american could teach me the high level that I am seeking.
It’s becuase we as americans want things fast! Only a small handful of us have taken the time to learn the art as a whole, its our culture and our laziness not our fault.
My sifu said that in china many masters would become OMD’s doctors before fighters. Fighting was secondary. However we as americans want the fighting only and are satisfied.

I am not! I have chosen to venture more deeply into my art and to do that It is almost a must to learn the culture, including the language.
“I have joint locks that dont translate well into english, so instead of trying to change the original meaning to better suit me I chose to learn it in it’s tongue to better suit the art”.

So if some jokers out here that limit themselves to (kicking a$$ man) only then they dont need to learn it in any language, just do it. red5angel is a joke and basically from reading his posts he doesnt know his art from his own a$$. These are the elementary practioners I speak of…

Earth Dragon, you need to shut the fukk up up. Please allow me to explain -
Let’s start with this ego filled paragraph -

“I was critisized, called names and chastized because these are my beliefs, and again TO ME to really know and understand the art in which you are spending your life learning you must learn the culture behind it. I have never met a serious sifu that did not know the names of his techniques in chinese. However I was attacked by a few of the americanized schools and thier students.”

You were criticized and chastized because you said that if you dodn’t know the language, and didn’t study from a chinese teacher, your art was inferior, period. When you were attacked for this you didn’t clear it up, you didn’t beg to differ, you didn’t defend yourself, but made things worse by claiming that chinese food isn’t chinese food if it is cooked by mexicans, and revealed your racist tendancies by saying if you saw mexicans in a chinese resteraunt you would run. Am I missing anything so far? Cause the threads can be browsed and cut and pasted at any time.

Then you went on the offensive and claimed that anyone who differed in your opinion was jealous, because they haven’t had the privelage of training with chinese masters (a hugely ignorant assumption on this board I might add) and that all those who disagree with you on this must go to american schools, you didn’t imply that or hint, you said and you say it in the paragraph above.

As for serious sifu not knowing chinese names - if you had been paying attention, most of us said we had sifu who knew the names, but didn’t feel they needed to be used - since we arne’t in china afterall - and so used american names. My last shaolin instructor was more then happy to give you the chinese names if you asked, but felt it stuck better if you just practiced and not worried so much abotu how to say it ( you might want to take the hint from him).

What’s even more ironic is in your zealousness to defend your racist views, you didn’t stop to listen to everyone who pretty much agreed that by studying the culture and even the language, you might just get something out of it, but instead continued to imply we all study at “american” schools (by the way dumba$$, where was this school you study in?)

So in not one but two threads you not only came out as a racist with a huge ego, you confirmed it in several posts. so stop spreading your ignorant racists views and go back to the hills from which you came, stop inflicting your special brand of ignorance on those poor students of yours (I’m not even convinced you teach, how could someone like you be teaching anyone for long before they see right through your BS) and go find a place where you can cut some holes in a sheet and slip on your true colors.

Earth Dragon

I truly respect your aproach, and like I said, my teacher is Chinese and I drive through heavy traffic to get to him in Chinatown.

The problem I think some will have with your statements is that you say, “TO ME to really know and understand the art in which you are spending your life learning you must learn the culture behind it.” You shift it from personal to universal: To ME/You

I think you are doing your art a great service by translating materials. My master has been given an old texts that he regards as his bible. I hope he is translating it and if not I hope someday he trusts me enough to do so – I want to learn Mandarin actually just because I am emersed in the environment.

With that said, the beautiful thing about martial arts is that it goes beyond language. Too many words get in the way already. Lock me once I’ll understand the broad idea of what you did.

“How did you do that?” I’m sure you’ve asked and heard that many times.

After two or three demonstrations I have it. Just need to practice it a few dozen times and then should own it and ready to try and pull it off.

Of course, if you find a highly skilled teacher who doesn’t speak English, that you would have to learn the language.

But, like I said, I respect your aproach. I’ve been so heavily into this now for so long I am happy with everything but my a$$ kicking ability. I need to boost that up a bit still. I still need to get a higher percentage rate on the ground. Sometimes I do great. Sometimes I over react, over extend and get submitted in the most stupid ways. I still also have unfinished business with San Da, I need to bring my skill set into the ring and find my pace.

You got punked in the bathroom at McDonald’s?!?

I’ve seen so many ego-tripping ‘masters’ (as have many of us) who parade around with their geeky entourage claiming to be the grandmaster of kempo, tae kwon do, karate, you name it. A lot of these guys really suck and don’t deserve that kind of title at all. And many Americans, martial artists or otherwise, recognise how ridiculous these guys are and therefore regard them as a joke. So to call someone who is actually very skilled and may truely deserve this title ‘master’, it seems like some kind of sarcastic parody. I don’t think it matters what you call them as long as the respect is there and everyones comfortable. If refering to someone in a traditional way is appropriate then thats fine; otherwise leave it for all the Anacronist Society types walking around in the monk robes.

Evolution fist,
I truly respect your aproach, and like I said, my teacher is Chinese and I drive through heavy traffic to get to him in Chinatown.

I moved across the country to live at the school in SanFrancisco china town so I hear where your comming from.

The problem I think some will have with your statements is that you say, “TO ME to really know and understand the art in which you are spending your life learning you must learn the culture behind it.” You shift it from personal to universal: To ME/You

Some will always have a problem with what ever you say in on way or another, you cant get everyone to agree or understand, everyone has different views.

Of course, if you find a highly skilled teacher who doesn’t speak English, that you would have to learn the language.

My sifu Shyun kwan long is right from tawian and his english is extremly broken and only taught in chinese with some english, before that I learned from a greek guy but his english was better LOL

We all need to practice, that’s a given. I would like to polish many of my skills, however the plate is so full and with so many techniques it’s hard to concentrate on what you think you will use in a fighting scenerio, and like I said I am getting to the point that I will probably never fight again, (unless of course I fly to minesota and wipe the floor with red5angel) but beating up brats is not my thing.

Originally posted by EarthDragon . . . (unless of course I fly to minesota and wipe the floor with red5angel) but beating up brats is not my thing.

:smiley:

red,

That last post of your was just over the top.

I was right up front jumping on Earthdragon for the restaurant analogy but not bevause I though it was racist but because haveing worked restaurants for over a decade . . . I just knew how flawed the analogy was. And the fact is everyone DOES try their damdest to find an Italian resaurant where the food is cooked by Italians. But you know what? Even in the rare cases where a Sicilian is in the kitcken he tailors the cooking to what your average american fatass thinks it should taste like anyways. lol And then there’s the focacia we used to make at Mona Lisa in North Beach. Best most authentic tasting stuff you could ever find ANYWHERE. Cooked mostly by our local mexican Chef who TRAINED UNDER a fantastic old alcoholic coke addicted guy from Trieste. Whatever…memories. The pressure…the on the job drinking…the MJ breaks in the wine cellar…

So anyways…

No need to get into the language and culture if a$$ kicking is the only thing you care about. But if you want to actually learn the real thing…a particular style with all it’s particular intricacies and flavours…you need to get in deep.

It may not be the case for ALL styles but it definately is for some. There are “secrets” contained in the Chinese names for certain moves. Things that don’t translate well. Things that hint at the flavor of certain moves. There is an internal aspect, I don’t mean qi gong, I mean an inner content and some real subtle stuff that is super difficult to translate.

So maybe YOU personally don’t have to learn the language but SOMEBODY who’s mother tongue is the same as your own has to learn it. SOMEONE has to be the bridge. And if you don’t also take that step, you may learn to fight but you will be unable to transmit a signifigant portion of the art.