If you strip out the forms, style specific drills, traditions, Mandarin/Cantonese and leave only fundamental fighting technique, what, if anything makes it Gong Fu?
All good fighting tends to be similar at the base application level, so what makes a fighter “Chinese?”
Is it the way you do your cross or sidekick, the stances/footwork you apply, your theory/philosophies, the core drills, a particular pattern of attack or defense?
Aside from stylistic preferences, sport rule sets and such; at the base level, what would be the difference from a Chinese, Japanese, Thai or whatever based fighter?
Kung Fu to me is like you have trained “certain skill” long enough that you can use it to beat up everybody who want to give you trouble. Whether that "certain skill’ is from TCMA or from other MA systems, it won’t change the definition of “Kung Fu”. “Kung Fu” is not how much you know but how well you can do. The word “style” has no meaning to me.
In my experience the term Chinese Gong Fu emphasizes a particular approach to training. As best I understand it, it means learning over a long period through observation, intuition, imitation and constant repetitive practice. A willingness to just do the basic exercises as instructed and surrender (at least for a time) to the teacher’s guidance. Many of the most important lessons can’t be explained but are transmitted by living together with the teacher, coaches and community of practitioners. It’s incredibly important to spend time (weeks, months) on the most basic basics, with things like standing stake, simple movements, and a relaxed attitude both mentally and physically, without a feeling of wanting to rush ahead.
To illustrate the osmosis idea to me, one coach grabbed a student who had never been taught staff and gave him a staff and said play it. The student started playing at the first staff form with some nice shen fa and doing a kind of rendition of the first few moves. From there he had some questions and started getting interested in staff. I think he thought now it was his turn to start on staff but actually the coach was just using him to make a point: See how much he knows just from living here and being around others who are practising?
They may have emphasized this side of it because I was one of the short term students who only stays a month or so, and needs more content-dense instruction and explanations to be able to go home and practise alone. As a short-term residential student you needed to negotiate delicately to make sure they didn’t just stand you in the corner, at least it was like that at first, before they were very used to foreign students.
So there’s something of a contradiction between teaching long-term residential students, and short-term visitors. It’s the long-term residential students who best can learn the “Chinese Gong Fu” way.
I saw their way of handling this contradiction evolve over the years. For instance they would get a new foreign student and have a plan for him to learn quite a lot, but they wouldn’t tell him much about the plan. It’s like they wanted him to go through the phase of being frustrated and thinking he’s getting nothing. Like it was good for him to learn that lesson. (He complained he’d had “enough of that in the army”)
I’m just describing the attitudes as best I understood them through a sizable language barrier.
The key to using Kung Fu for Martial arts lies in abstraction.
The ability to isolate from a skill the underlying essence, which can then be applied to any other skill even though this skill is not related to the first.
On a simple level if you have hoed fields all your life, you could use the same skill to wield a sword and cleave a mans head without need of additional training. But more mysteriously extracting a deeper essence from the way you hoe a field you can apply it to calligraphy and write a beautiful character even when you have not doen it before.
In a sense it is a mathematical operation, extracting the underlying relationship between mind and body so that it can be applied across disciplines to any variables.
So the Kung Fu approach to MA is more about developing this intangible intimacy between mind and body and strong base attributes that can be used in myriad ways rather than very specific training.
I seen a VCD of Shaolin basics where De Yang said “You will never find Kung Fu in the boxing setting.” “These are just inane postures.” He was referring to forms and went on to say “the real Kung Fu” is the mastery of the fundamentals, year after year.
I found this interesting, since nowadays, Shaolin Quan is known for its’ seemingly unlimited forms.
I agree with the assertions that Gong Fu is as much mental as physical. Without the proper mindset applying Gong Fu is nearly impossible. I’m a believer in “Gong Fu everything,” you can drag yourself up the stairs or run up them. You can bend down to pick something up, or you can twist into the rest stance, drop into a kneeling stance, use your gung bu as if you were seizing the leg, ect…
I think anything that is kung fu, is not based on any techniques or styles. I think what matters more than anything is the philosophy behind the MA. How you think when you fight and what purpose you have.
ask, “why am i so obsessed with kung fu? what do i want from kung fu?”
if kung fu is just kickboxing, what does that mean? why cant kung fu be kickboxing? why kung fu must not be kickboxing? what is so terrible about kickboxing?
[QUOTE=Kellen Bassette;1229997]
so what makes a fighter “Chinese?”
[QUOTE=bawang;1230103]ask, “why am i so obsessed with kung fu? what do i want from kung fu?”[/QUOTE]
For me it was the flow of good Kung Fu. TCMA, when done well, has fluidity not replicated in other martial arts. That’s what attracted me to the Chinese arts, to begin with.
[QUOTE=bawang;1230103]
if kung fu is just kickboxing, what does that mean? why cant kung fu be kickboxing? why kung fu must not be kickboxing? what is so terrible about kickboxing?[/QUOTE]
I used to dislike kick boxing because I felt it was just TMA watered down. Now I love kick boxing and feel like it’s the TMA that have been watered down.
[QUOTE=bawang;1230103]
what makes a fighter “black”?[/QUOTE]
I half expected that, lol. I think you know I meant derived from Chinese martial arts.
It is what you make it. for everyone it is different.
simple answer that is hard to understand.
In all MA’s there are qualities that are almost universal. Kung fu is just a name like any other MA’s name. It was my induction into the MA’s world therefore it holds a place above many others. That’s my reason.
I used to dislike kick boxing because I felt it was just TMA watered down. Now I love kick boxing and feel like it’s the TMA that have been watered down.
[/QUOTE]
you didnt answer the question.
what is wrong with white boxing, white kickboxing, white wrestling? why do some white martial artists look down on their own culture and tradition?
[QUOTE=bawang;1230131]you didnt answer the question.
what is wrong with white boxing, white kickboxing, white wrestling? why do some white martial artists look down on their own culture and tradition?[/QUOTE]
I think it’s the exotic aspect that appeals to a lot of westerners; and the complexity. You get to be part of some “elite fraternity,” learn ancient secrets, know what other don’t know. It fulfills a lot of fantasies.
Boxing, kick boxing and wrestling is simple, and primitive. It’s accessible to the everyone. Perhaps that is why pro wrestling is so much more popular than real wrestling. It plays to white trash fantasies.
[QUOTE=Kellen Bassette;1230132]I think it’s the exotic aspect that appeals to a lot of westerners; and the complexity. You get to be part of some “elite fraternity,” learn ancient secrets, know what other don’t know. It fulfills a lot of fantasies.
Boxing, kick boxing and wrestling is simple, and prmitive. It’s accessible to the everyone. Perhaps that is why pro wrestling is so much more popular than real wrestling. It plays to white trash fantasies. [/QUOTE]
here is my opinion.
the cultural annihilation of the old european immigrant groups into order to blend in white america. people long for culture with real history and roots. american pop culture is manufactured and disposable.
modern sports only cares about winning. obsession with winning takes to an extreme, and winning becomes a science. american martial arts is extremely hom0genized, organized, sanitized, institutionalized.
Possibly…I’ve always felt that white America has a cultural identity crisis. “White” used to be a whole lot of very diverse cultures, most of the old roots have been lost as English, French, German, Italian, Polish, ect. all began living together.
We are seeing different sub cultures evolve, metropolitan, sub urban, southern, ect…but with no real roots or history…it creates a void…
to go back to your original point, chinese immigrants have always been bullied and kept their heads down, and endure suffering. thats what makes it kung fu.
[QUOTE=Kellen Bassette;1230137]
We are seeing different sub cultures evolve, metropolitan, sub urban, southern, ect…but with no real roots or history…it creates a void…[/QUOTE]
in america you are defined by your outer appearance. so its no surprise that kung fu is also judged by its outer appearance. but its whats inside that counts.
[QUOTE=Kellen Bassette;1230132]
Boxing, kick boxing and wrestling is simple, and primitive. It’s accessible to the everyone. Perhaps that is why pro wrestling is so much more popular than real wrestling. It plays to white trash fantasies. [/QUOTE]
kung fu is the most simple and primitive martial art in the world.
