Earth Dragon, Chinese Teachers and Sifu

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
21

The problem I have is the seperation of being able to use the art (kicking a$$ with it) and “knowing the real thing.”

If you internalize your art, are able to use its pricniples and find a handfull of techniques that work for you in all ranges … don’t you know the art?

I’m worried that a wrong message can be put out there: that if you learn Chinese, the art’s history, can name the meridians in Chinese, can order food in Chinese, ect. … but can’t use your art to fight with TKD, or you fear the Tai Boxer, or the idea of getting together with BJJ guys and getting on your back and letting them mount you for fun, to see what happens is below you, "because in China fighting on the ground is an insult … then, who really knows the art?

22

(unless of course I fly to minesota and wipe the floor with red5angel)

I pray for the day. However, if there is one thing I can count on, its that silk PJ wearing racists with huge ego’s like yourself couldn’t throw down in a real fight if they wanted to. Threats over PM will be all I recieve from you because your too busy pretending to be sifu for a bunch of snot nosed wannbes like yourself ;). But in case you change your mind, as I told you in your silly PM, I got an extra room if you need a place to stay.
Seriously, stop being a fukking racist beyotch please.

Omar - I see racism pure and simple. I don’t agree with your idea tht aeveryone looks for italian resteraunts run by italians. My thoughts are never about wh is doing the cooking but about whether thr food is good. The anology is excellent because when I want to learn a martial art, I worry about whether the skills are real, and if the techniques are good, not about whether the guy teaching it is from the “right” culture. That sort of attitude my freind, is racist.

23

Obviously your training counts for vastly more than your theoretical and historical/cultural knowledge. Some of us are just saying that without the other part, the cultural/historical/theoretical part, your stuff is incomplete and you face an extra obstacle in your training.

24

Some of us are just saying that without the other part, the cultural/historical/theoretical part, your stuff is incomplete and you face an extra obstacle in your training.

and some of us disagree, it’s a ridiculous and ignorant argument to say if I’m not interested in a culture behind the art, I’m missing something. Evolution Fist said it best, something about showing me a few times and I will understand, that’s all it takes.

25

Greetings..

Although i am fond of Chinese culture, am deeply involved with Taoist practices, and even wear black “PJs” when training.. i tend to agree with red5angel.. when all is said and done, it is the hard-core training that does the job.. endurance, courage, skill and a clear mind will save your hind-quarters quicker than all the cultural knowledge you have acquired.. cultural knowledge is a preference, skill is a necessity in a combat situation.. your local mugger is unconcerned with your Cantonese mastery or chopstick flair.. Sure, there are nuances of culture that can enhance a minor portion of your skills, but most can be reduced to good training without the “culture card”.. even the “secrets” can be translated into a context compatible to the student’s frame of reference, in short if it works it works in any language/culture..

Be well..

26

I think I already mention this as well - I myself am interested in the culture. Been reading a lot lately about buddhism, Taoism, and chinese culture for a few years now. However, not because I think I’m going to get something more out of my martial arts training. See, it turns out the chinese body is much like the american body, or the british body, or the russian body…and it turns out they move in exactly the same ways we do! So translating those movements from one body to another requires very little real verbal communication when it comes down to it, although of course it might help a little to get things faster. I study Chinese culture for the same reasons I study ancient Roman culture, Ancient European history Astronomy and a list of other subjects I enjoy reading about, because I’m curious, not because I think it’s going to reveal to me any secrets I can’t get from diligent study and practice.

27

I also believe there is a difference between understanding theory (A MUST) and culture and history (nice but not necessary).

When push comes to shove their is one way that I judge a martial artist: is he willing to throw some gloves on ( a huge first step) … how he performs with said gloves.

28

When push comes to shove their is one way that I judge a martial artist: is he willing to throw some gloves on ( a huge first step) … how he performs with said gloves.

Exactly!

29

red5angel,

first off, I can see by the threads you start and the stupid questions that you ask you are not very skilled in martial arts. All I see is your lack of knowledge by the beginner questions you post on this site. You have jumped around to so many different schools and styles without ever taking the time to learn anything worthwhile and it shows! You are just a kid with a big imagination and a love for the arts, I can respect that , however I have put in 24 years in the arts and have earned my place.

I fought ISKA full contact for 5 years in the early 80’s. I also trained with my kung fu brother Joel sutton for the UFC #5&6 along with Yoshiki Takahashi “world pancrase champion” for UFC #7 at my school! all of this is documented on my website, look at the photos button under “masters” and also “articles” so before you go shooting off your mouth you should realize that you cant judge someone based over the internet and talk big and bad while hiding behind your keyboard from the saftey of your mother’s house. also check out the photo of my students taking home the 1st 2nd and 3rd place trophies at the “Can- Am Open”. Canadian and american championships , the biggest tournment on the East coast. So again take your foot out of your mouth and give some respect!

Please, please, please, tell me (with proof) about anything you have EVER done in the martial arts world??? go on anything??? show me, prove me wrong,

30

What do you need that is going to make you feel better ED? I studied Wing Chun for 5 years before moving on. The last 2 years have been up and down in my search for good kungfu, although I’ve been studying Kali regularly for about 2 years now. I like the CMA so I’m looking for a good school, and I’m not satisfied with most of the crap out there. I fought in a few tournemants in high school when I went to a very traditional Shorin Ryu Karate school. Haven’t fought in anything official since then but I regularly attend some weekend fight night type events. At one point I felt that I needed to fight in an official event, I’ve got over it since most of those events are worthless, especially when it comes to kungfu. I spar when I can, against anyone who will, and it is satisfying my need to test myself on the battlefield.
Sorry ED, don’t have any metals for you, or trophies for that matter. Don’t need them. Haven’t learned from a traditional chinese instructor, although I’ve learned from traditional teachers - one was cambodian, the rest have been plain ole white american, but they were good, very good.
But that’s good, for a guy who calls himself sifu, spouting off all these titles like they mean something, or threatening me over email, or even claiming a bunch of crap like you have over the internet gets you what? Some sort of recognition from other virtual sifus? :rolleyes: Please, I think you should start your own cyberkwoon so you don’t spread your disease to other martial artists. I’m not hiding behind anything, you asked some questions, wanted to know wher eI lived, I told you. I’ll email you the exact address with any sort of proof you need, if you want to come lookin’. Otherwise stop with the fake threats and posturing and get back into those silk PJ’s and do some authentic chinese dancing :wink:

by the way,I like the constipated expression when your punching or throwing, i can FEEL THE POWER!!!:eek:

31

Just as I thought , your a “sheit” talker with nothing to back you up except your mouth. You have no room to critisize anyone.

32

"it’s a ridiculous and ignorant argument to say if I’m not interested in a culture behind the art, I’m missing something. "

I think that it is impossible to say that you are not missing “something”. History and culture helps us understand what we are practicing. To really see a martial art you need to try understand the culture of origin. The martial arts are at least in a part a product of a socio-political environment. To not be exposed to the results of this influence would mean to study alone. Therefore, if you really want to wrap your head around how what you are doing got to where it is when you have the chance to learn it, you have to study the culture/s of origin. It’s just like studying anything. Eventually, if you look deep enough you look further and further into the past. With martial arts training, often this digging leads right back to where you started. But the point is that as you dig, you learn a lot about yourself, the world, and martial arts. And that makes you smarter and stronger.

So, you are missing “something”. It’s just something you don’t want.

33

omarthefish,

Your post is EXACTLY why I laughed about the restaurant issue.

What you look for is not who’s COOKING the food, but who’s EATING it!

Everybody knows that the line cooks are the ones turning and burning…

34

Line cooks kick ass.

. . . you know, I may get some use out of this metaohore after all. I mean, they CAN cook. But they are the LAST guys I would trust to open a restaurant. There’s so much more to a good restaurant than kicking ass in the kitcken.

TaiChiBob said:

. . .even the “secrets” can be translated into a context compatible to the student’s frame of reference.

But SOMEONE has got to figure out how to translate them into a context compatable to the students frame of reference. Not an easy task. And for certain arts, in the words of my first gong fu teacher, “You speak Chinese, more people help you.” :smiley: Boy was THAT ever the truth. But ESPECIALLY when I look at my current situation, without taking the big step of learning the language and moving to China . . . just no way possible to get this particular door opened.

But really, the most relevent and most objective part is the “something”. If you really don’t care about that “something” then why bother to go the extra mile? But I’ll tell you one thing…more than a few of the best teachers…at least of traditional styles, if you show them that you really couldn’t give a rats a$$ about the background and cultural context of the style, the ‘songs’, the poetic names for things, the connotations of various moves etc. . . .they really won’t waste their time putting their heart and soul into teaching you their art. My own teacher regards Bajiquan, especially particular version of it he learned as a national treasure.

Some of the old time secrecy is still around but it’s not that difficult to get them to teach it all to a foreigner. You just have to demonstrate that you want the whole thing. That you value and respect all those parts that certain people here are so stridently proclaiming really aren’t important. All that counts is kicking ass.

If all you want to do is kick ass…you won’t learn anything from MY teacher. He still believes in the quaint old idea of testing peoples character for several months before accepting them as formal students.

35

omarthe fish,
you said
“If all you want to do is kick ass…you won’t learn anything from MY teacher. He still believes in the quaint old idea of testing peoples character for several months before accepting them as formal students”

Excellent post! I begged my sifu for 5 years to allow me to move to San Francisco and learn from him. He kept telling me he was too busy so I spent the first 5 years learning from one of his students Sifu dean Economos. He was testing me to see if I was indeed serious enough and patient enough for the long haul. Finally in the 5th year he said OK you come now, so I quit my career, sold my car and moved across the US to live in S.F and never looked back.

36

Sometimes I think I got of easy. I know of at least one other local guy who tried for 2 years to get in and this included a fair bit of gifts and stuff. Now 2 years later, he’s gone. Go figure. Maybe my Shifu was right in the first place not to accept him right off. But I also think he gives me a lot of credit for the work I put into finding him before we were introduced. He has mentioned it to other people on occasion. For example:

-He knows I learned the language just so I could better study gong fu. No small amount of time and effort there.

-He gives me credit for coming all the way from America and basically throwing out what should be my career building years so I can study gong fu.

-He seems to be a bit impressed that I even found him AND that I went about it the traditional way.

So he took me after about 6 months but there was another 4-5 years of preparation to even be in a position to make the request.

37

omarthefish

WHAT??? you said..
He knows I learned the language just so I could better study gong fu. No small amount of time and effort there.

Can you repeat that so everyone else here can hear that again… even people like red5angel and all his cronies. It seems like I am alone in this, but I dont know maybe it’s just me… and every other lifetime martial artist I know!

38

Please excuse my incursion into the Love Nest, but this thread touches so many g-spots…

Theory versus Execution
Art versus Violence
Loyalty versus personal gratification
passive and active racism…

I’ve been lucky enough to study under 3 good masters over the last 30 years. My teen-age tae kwon do instructor was a “cultural attache” to the Korean Embassy in Frankfurt Germany that taught on the American Base (where Elvis was stationed, I might add). He spoke only broken English.

Master Leung Cheung taught Yau Kung Mun in Sydney, and likewise, he spoke only broken English, if he bothered.

Pak Mei Master Leung Yuk Seng, same story, hardly able to string a Sentence together in English.

I wouldn’t trade these experiences for all the tomes in China. The learning of the art took place physically, not intellectually, and I think thats something we all understand the importance of, or at least we should.

Yet, the cultural experiences, training at a Temple, haunting Chinatown with the “regulars”, Lion Dancing, Chinese vocabulary (notice I didn’t say Language…) were perhaps the extra bits that kept me focused, interested, and added the extra entertainment that kept me involved. Its one thing to learn a theory you can’t yet execute, another to learn a theory that is reflected in something you already understand physically.

And as for fighting. I’ve been in the ring, not for years, but I’ve collected a trophy or two the hard way, and sadly, not only the big one. And to say the proof of martial arts is with the golves on is a load of crap. Thats like saying sorting out a knife fight can be done with rubber knives. Gloves are sport. The lowest common denomenator.

Sure, sparring is fun, it builds confidence, timing, strength and strategy, but nothing takes the fight out of some looser like a tight grip on the windpipe or a knee to the goolies, neither of which you practice with gloves on.

To me, the essence of good fighting is discipline and style. How do you develop that?

Oh Yea, racism. Hey, some of my best friends are racists. They get this yang and yin thing going with all my Politically Correct Holier than Thou friends and it makes for good sport…You find what you look for.

BTW, Omar, I once trained some Kung fu with a couple of of guys at Venice Beach near the Basketball courts when I had a long lay-over in LA. They were Chinese soft style, you know anything about that?

39

Don’t know who the Venice dudes are. I just recently also had an extended layover in LA and was actually training in Venice for several months. . . Muay Thai at Redwoods gymn with Master Kahm.

Complicated post there…reflects how complicated this topic is.

I originally never intended to learn Chinese. I just knew that the biggest obstacle I had in my MA trianing was my job. I set out to build a carreer that would support my training instead of hold it back. I picked Chinese medicine and entered UCSF as a biology major while studying a bit of Chinese on the side because most TCMA schools require a little bit. As time passed I ran a few ideas by my Shifu as to what sort of things I could study at college that would be most usefull to my gong fu training. TCM? Chiropractic? Chinese? He actually felt that Chinese would be more usefull than the Chinese medicine degree. :confused: He said simply that there were more people out there who could help me if I spoke Chinese than there were at present.

I originally went to mainland China as a stopover on my way to Hong Kong to pay respects to the grandmaster. Life happened. I realized I was going to be there for a while and really NEEDED a teacher. Finding a traditional teacher may be harder in mainland China than in America. And my teacher in America was so top flight it was really hard to find anyone who could impress me. Mostly the only people who can fight over there nowadays are the Sanda guys. But then I struck gold and I can’t believe how lucky I am.

Bottom line, in my experience learning Chinese and studying traditional customs was [i]crucial[/i to finding this guy.

I should mention that I studied “traditional customs” not “Chinese customs”. There are certain commonalities and ways of behaving to get you accepted into the inner circles of various societies that are truly cross-cultural.

40

But neither your experiences, or ED’s comments prove the idea that “if you ain’t learning the ‘other stuff’” then you’re not learning the real thing re: CMA.

It just demonstrates that there are some masters out there that want uber-traditional and others that don’t care. It doesn’t speak to a qualitative difference at all.