If it looks like a duck.....

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
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A subject has come up a few times over the last couple of days for me, and I just noticed the same thing in the footwork thread so I thought I start a new one to free that one up.

As it applies to martial arts - Does someone need to be from an arts culture to assure the purest form of that art? Does someone from say china, have a leg up on someone who is not, in learning or teaching kungfu?

A year ago or so I had an asian guy say something like this to me “I should take up martial arts, I’d probably be good at it.” I figured he had taken some before or maybe was just naturally athletic but I figured I’d ask him why he thought that and he said “Because I’m asian, it’s just in my blood.” He’s vietnamese by the way. I told him I thought that was a ridiculous statement because asia didn’t have the market on the martial arts, and as far as I knew, martial arts wasn’t a genetic trait that was passed on, although athleticism and other traits that could help, are.

EarthDragon came out in the footwork thread and basically said that an instructor should know everything he can about the language used in the art (proper chinese names of movements, forms, etc..) the culture and history. and he basically stated that somehow, being asian gives one an advantage when teaching kungfu or something to that effect. What do you guys and gals think?

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This is a very tricky topic, on quite a few levels. Unfortunately the commercialization of culture is where the problem lies.

A friend of mine told me one day, that he decided not to continue going to martial arts class after his second attendance there. I asked him why. His responce was, ‘because my instructor is white’.

I was perplxed, so I said, ‘But you’re white’.

He said ‘I know, but I want to be taught by an asian master. Maybe even one day I’ll become a master’.

‘Do you think you’d make a good master?’

‘Yes’ he said.

‘Would you expect to receive more respect from your students than you are providing this particular teacher?’ I asked.

…silence.

Heritage and tradition are a remarkable thing to learn if you wish to devote the time. But to think that your teacher is better based on skin color…is a fantasy based on movies.

3

I think I’ve beaten plenty of Japanese kids when I studied karate and beat plenty of Chinese guys I know who study Wing Chun.

Learning the culture is great, just to know about the place your beloved art comes from. I love Asian philosophy, particularly Taosim.

But when it comes to fighting, I actually think Westerners have a general size/weight advantage over our Asian counterparts. In the end, it depends on how good YOU are, that’s it.

In related news, I’ve felt vibes in my old school by a few Asian students of the, “Where does he get off” sort. Never meant much to me. I’m go to learn and don’t care what anyone but the teacher thinks. Of course, a friendly environment is always a nice bonus.

4

Turn the light on, does not mean flirt with the light fixtures.

See if I can turn her on, does not mean find the knob or switch on the woman an flick it.

Within a language all things~ are not literal. So (needle-and-thread), when instructing from one language to another, if idioms can be included…Knowing nuances of a language or culture might give an edge to understanding.

One might think.

5

redangel,
Yes I am a tradtionalist becuse I have been fortunate to learn from 2 chinese masters, most people dont have that opportunity so they say it’s not important but it is to me.

however, I didnt say that becuase you dont know the chinese terms your kung fu cant be good, but to get a grasp on the entire completeness of CMA when you spend the better part of your life learning and training in them you should at some level learn the history, language and culture to keep it from becomming too americanized.
This is the problem that has been the downfall of tradtion, and defending it becuse you are justifying not knowing it in its entirety it quite a problem.

Most teachers never take the time to learn, and then pass the info off to thier students losing its authenticity, then these same students argue that it’s not important to know simply to justifying thier ignorance.
It’s like saying we dont have weapons in our system. no you do it’s just your teacher was too lazy to learn them. So the student says their not important, I’ll never use a sword or stick in a fight why bother? doenst mean my hand combat isnt good. that not the point do you understand?

Why do you call your teacher sifu? why not bill? Why learn the history of your system then? and its founder ? and the year? want to know why? becuase this is all relevant to knowing a complete system of kung fu. not just some made up crap taught at the YMCA. I take pride in knowing everything I can about my system and am always eager to learn more.

That’s why originally old masters didnt want the heritage and arts to be taught to americans.

If I EVER went into a chinese resturant and saw mexicans cooking the food I would run!!! and yes that makes chinese food not chinese but chinacan. So that is not a dumb reason AT ALL!

6

The race card

This is always a tricky one in CMA. I do firmly beleive that CMA embraces more than just fighting arts - like anything Chinese, it contains Chinese culture as well - and that’s huge - HUGE. You can gut it and still have Chinese roots, like a lot of the Sanshou fighters do today in the West, but I feel that you lose out one so much that way. That being said, obviously someone from Chinese culture will have a better purchase on the arts. However, culture is learned, not inherited. I know plenty of non-Chinese who know plenty more about Chinese culture than I do (being Chinese). At the same time, I know many Chinese who don’t know diddly about their culture. So don’t let the slant eyes fool you [SIZE=1](man, I can’t beleive I just wrote that)[/SIZE]

If it’s all about what’s in the blood, my retort is HAPA NATION RISING!!!

7

My master is Chinese and most of my classmates are Chinese.

Sometimes my master says something in Chinese to get a point across because there’s not a similiar translation in english and the students try to translate.

But in the end, he just executes what were talking about on me and I understand right away.

He says his English is not that great but I understand everything he says … maybe my ear has adopted to it. But this is martial arts, with a little experience I’d rather learn by touch than mouth anyday.

I’ve had teachers in the past that never touch hands with you and everything is talk and seniors will show you … and they were American.

My Chinese master is the most down-to-Earth teacher I’ve ever had. At 60-something years old he’ll still go down on the floor and lets you mount him and insist that you try to submit him at full power.

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This guy is really good. He’s lineage holder in multiple arts, and not chinese

http://members.shaw.ca/wuti/tuttle.html

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Yes I am a tradtionalist becuse I have been fortunate to learn from 2 chinese masters, most people dont have that opportunity so they say it’s not important but it is to me.

I disagree and I find that highly egotystical of you to imply that because some of us don’t get to train with CHINESE masters that we hold some sort of resentment or jealousy. I’ve got to learn from a master, period and it wouldn’t have mattered whether he were chinese or not.

to keep it from becomming too americanized.

That doesn’t make any sense. So what if it becomes americanized, all things change, and a kungfu being chinese doesn’t make it any more legite, no matter what language you are teaching it in.

Most teachers never take the time to learn, and then pass the info off to thier students losing its authenticity, then these same students argue that it’s not important to know simply to justifying thier ignorance.

again, an extremely ignorant and egotistical way of looking at things. I personally don’t think it matters what freakin language it is in. Giving the chinese names for things in the art doesn’t give it any more authenticity, it’s if you can take it out on the street and use it to do what it is supposed to do that provides it with authenticity.

I take pride

Obviously, a little too seriously I think.

That’s why originally old masters didnt want the heritage and arts to be taught to americans.

No, if you knew your kungfu history you’d know that the chinese have always been xenophobic and often were very secretive, even amongst their own people, about their arts. “American” was just a nother group of people to be paranoid about.

I can’t believe I’m gearing this, and you teach even. Are you white? Do you have White Students?

If I EVER went into a chinese resturant and saw mexicans cooking the food I would run!!! and yes that makes chinese food not chinese but chinacan. So that is not a dumb reason AT ALL!

Wow, that’s real ignorant of you there earth dragon. Really, because someone isn’t chinese, cook chinese, it suddenly and magically is no longer chinese food?

I don’t know what to say, I’m shocked and horrified to be quite honest. that level of ignorance I beleved was sort of fading out of the community, but I guess there are some out there trying to keep the dream alive.

10

E_D

Do you have to practice to get your head so far up your ass, or does that kinda [in]flexibility come naturally?

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I have an American Sifu. I have a Chinese Sifu. The American guy uses English terms because he’s American. The Chinese guy uses Chinese terms because he’s Chinese.

My Sigung is Korean and he uses Korean terms for everything, even though his teacher was Chinese.

Chinese olympic boxers don’t learn English and Western customs to box. Why should we have to learn Chinese terms to use kung fu?

I like tradition. And I like Chinese martial history. It certainly adds flavor to the training. But it’s not necessary.

You don’t want your kung fu Americanized? Too late. You learned it in America.

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Don’t get me wrong, I always try to look at chinese culture, it’s fascinating to me, and I think there can be some things gleaned from the study but I don’t think it’s necessary and I certainly don’t think being asian makes kungfu more authentic!

13

I think I’ll take McDonalds to court. For each and every employee they have, not a westerner and making burgers.

And the fries…so help me god, there had better be english people making those fries!

14

My take on it:

I have two teachers, my Taiji teacher is caucasian and fluent in Mandarin. My
Choy Lay Fut Kung Fu teacher is Chinese. I have also had a caucasian Hung Gar/CLF teacher who knew very little Chinese language, but knew a lot about the culture. .

All of my teachers are/have been great. However, I would argue that knowing the Chinese language is going to help you immensely and prevent a lot of confusion that is caused by translation. If you are serious about being a “Sifu” and not just a student you must take the time to learn the language and culture.

When you learn the Chinese language it is goes hand in hand that you also learn Chinese culture, philosophy and traditions. The literal translation of Chinese is unintelligible unless you have a basic understanding of these things…they are that ingrained.

Furthermore, when you understand the language and the cultural context, you can get a deeper understanding of what a technique is all about.

An example, in Taiji they talk about the “mind” or “yi.” And they talk about the “yi” leading the “chi.” Well did you know that the Chinese consider the the “mind” or “yi” to reside in the area of the heart? They’re not talking about the brain at all! So practitioners that did not make this distinction would think that they are supposed to be leading the chi around with their brain. When in fact it is the area near the heart that is the “governor” of chi.

You see how things get easily get lost or misconstrued in translation.

Learning the language and culture will deepen your understanding but it is no substitute for sweat.

So you also see Chinese dudes that know everything to know about a particular art, could talk for days about theory and take pride in the fact that they are a Chinese guy, teaching a Chinese art, using Chinese terms and principles of Chinese philosophy.

And at the end of the day they can’t fight they’re way out of a wet paper bag and have to rely on bull**** like Lin Kong Jing (empty force) and bull**** parlor tricks.

Compare that to a white guy that worked hard with Sifu and can APPLY what he knows and can’t speak a lick of Chinese.

So my point is that understanding Chinese language and culture can be an invaluable part of your deepening your understanding. But it is no substitute for hard work and effort.

I would approach every teacher skeptically and as an individual. Take some time to evaluate their skill and teaching ability and understanding of their art. It’s not gonna benefit you to prejudge them based on the color of their skin or their native language and culture.

The best teacher, of course, is going to be the one with fighting skills and that can deepen your understanding on many levels, including cultural.

Peace. :stuck_out_tongue:

15

redangel,
people are entitled to thier opinon. And yours is simply yours That’s why you always diagree with what people say and think.

You seem to belive that your opionon is the only one. and always play the devils advocate, that fine but what you think I think just the opposite.
But because you dont agree dont call me ignorant and egotistical. You dont have to put others down to get your own point across no matter how wrong it may be.

quote:

Yes I am a tradtionalist becuse I have been fortunate to learn from 2 chinese masters, most people dont have that opportunity so they say it’s not important but it is to me.

then you said…
I disagree and I find that highly egotystical of you to imply that because some of us don’t get to train with CHINESE masters that we hold some sort of resentment or jealousy. I’ve got to learn from a master, period and it wouldn’t have mattered whether he were chinese or not.

Re- read my quote above and pay attention to the words fortunate, and but to me it is!
again you are saying becuse you dont agree and to me its important that’s egotistical? your full of B.S

I think you need to spend a little more timne training and less time being a pain on the internet.

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Fu Pow,
finally someone that agree’s with my thinking. The main forum board is the only one that I respond to that this issue comes up.

I dont know if its becuse so many people on here are just part time matial artists or are not that serious about thier art. I’ve read threads that in the middle they compare it to video games$#@^ whatever the case maybe, bring this subject up on the northen mantis board and watch it get shot down and moved in 1 day. this still amazes me.

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I can only teach how and what I’ve been taught.
Who am I to say OK for 350 years it’s done like this but because I’m american I am going to change the names of every technique to better suit my language? NO NO NO this is the problem that kung fu is up against and the more Mcdojo’s out there changing things the more is lost!
problem is most people that are not agreeing with me are training at these very Mcdojo’s so they defend and support these very actions.

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But because you dont agree dont call me ignorant and egotistical.

I’m not calling you ignorant or egotistical because you disagree with me, I’m calling you ignorant and egotistical because of the ignorant and egotistical things you said in your post.

You imply that because “most” people don’t get the chance to train with authentic chinese masters that somehow they try to write it off as not being important. It’s egotistical to think that somehow your in an enviable position because your masters were chinese. It’s also ignorant. I don’t care what color your skin is, or what nation you were born in, if you can teach me to fight and can give me what I want. Period, end of story. I fyou trained with chinese masters then great, but the word CHINESE does not hold any inherent sense of value to me when it comes to training. I’ve met non-chinese masters and white masters in other traditionally non white cultures arts that could kick ass all over the few chinese masters I have seen.
I’ve also met a few chinese who claim to masters who couldn’t beat their way out of that proverbial bag, so apparently being CHINESE isn’t a guarentee that you know what your talking about, can use it effectively and owuld make the best of the best of fighters out of me.

As for being a pain on the internet, if being a pain is calling your bull**** and all the other crap that comes through this board from time to time then expect it from me. I think your ignorant view on what quality training is and how to get it is BS. you make a lot of fukked up assumptions about people and now it’s starting to become clear where that comes from. You haven’t had the privelage of learning under a non-chinese master and so have to claim that chinese is the only way to go. I can understand that. I 've been blessed enough to meet masters of all sorts of different races and so can free my mind of that ignorant attitude and realise that no matter what you call a punch, it’s still a punch.

19

Greetings..

The only differences are in our individual perceptions..

I know a Latino that is a lead chef in a Chinese resturant, and she is idolized by the owner AND the patrons, the soul is the source, not the ethnicity.. Like EvolutionFist, i have a keen interest in philosophical Taoism, i have visited and studied at Taoist temples and monastaries, and one thing i notice about Taoists is their aversion to stereotypes.. certainly, there are nuances of culture that escape translation, but.. the concepts and the martial arts are not exclusive to the culture, the cross-culture exchange is limited only by the participants desire to complete the communication..

Each confining principle we accept or acknowledge further empowers that separation.. I spent over a decade training with G’Master Chan Pui whose english language skills are (respectfully) comical.. but, the man taught mostly by silent example and did a great job of it.. As an american (round-eye) i don’t have the cultural background to appreciate many of the nuances of language, but.. i can easily understand the concepts they are referring to.. I don’t use too much Chinese in my class, eventhough i have learned enough to get by in the areas that concern me.. i figure that if i intend to teach Americans the easiest way is to present Chinese concepts in a format familiar to the student is in their native language.. Traditional virtues can be equally expressed and learned through any culture, various jings can be explained in a context easily understood by just about any language..

To deny one culture’s wisdom to another due to stereotyping is inexcuseable.. it simply takes more effort, and if the lessons are worth it, who cares..

Be well..

20

sheeze you just can’t stop with spouting the ignorance can you?

NO NO NO this is the problem that kung fu is up against and the more Mcdojo’s out there changing things the more is lost!

LOL! BEcause someone out there isn’t calling a technique by it’s chinese name something is lost? I got a wake up call for you dumb a$$, you’re not learning a language, your learning a martial art. A kick is still a kick and a punch is still a punch. Fu Pows might at first seem logical, but what does it matter where the chinese think the mind is?! You both know where and what the fist is and I can show you how to apply it without ever saying a word. That doesn’t need the proper language to explain, it doesn’t need mountains of what some people find to be useless and boring philisophical BS either. The reason kungfu is dying is because of guys like you who think only the chinese can teach kungfu. What the fukk are you doing teaching it?! Your not chinese! According to you way of viewing things your part of the problem! how doe sthat work?! Oh wait, I forgot your learning from real chinese guys! :eek:
That’s whats killing kungfu, guys like you spreading this BS around, diluting your teachings with mystical BS designed to pull in rent payers and not real fighters. Mumble a few chinese words and you got PJ wearing hippies hooked dontcha? Meanwhile all the guys with real fighting spirit are moving to MMA, Muy Thai, BJJ and all the other stuff because those guys teaching those arts don’t mind using american terms and leaving all the mystical bull for the home or the patchouli smelling candle burning new age book shops!Your hat’s killing kungfu because you can’t get past the old school chinese xenophobia to free your mind a littl ebit to realise it’s not just about chinese culture and you don’t have to know anything about the culture to learn how to fight the chinese way. Instead your out there telling people that if they don’t know the chinese language they can’t be studying the real stuff an it’s just watered down american BS. Way to go there ED, convince everyone else that you can’t learn the art if you don’t know the language and the customs, and watch them all walk away.
Thos Mcdojos your railing on about aren’t killing these arts, they got tons of people walking through their doors everyday, day in and day out. It might not be what you recognize it as such, but they aren’t stuffed in some inner city sh!thole of a building cause they got 10 guys who are learig from them occasionally, cause everyone else has been convinced that instead of learning to fight, they should dress like chinese, talk like chinese and act like chinese.
In another few decades kungfu will truly be dead, all the great kungfu fighters already are, dying off by the droves cause they’re seeing all this hippy xenophibic crap taking over and in their hearts they really know what it takes to fight, a will to achieve and a will to overcome. Guys like me can only hope that people like you will eventually see the poison your spreading around with the pretense of keeping things “authentic” and will come around to not alowing yourselves to take 10 steps backwards and take a few stesp forwards.