Could and Should the Mook Jong be Updated?

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
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In WC the things that the Mj provides are certainly important. In the absence of a training partners, it might be a good option.

Although, I think that random MJ-like training apparatus can be rigged up that have a more realistic feel. For example my buddy padded a 4x4 post and lashed a dowel rod to it with some extra airline tubing from an aquarium. I liked the springiness of the arm when practicing various WC movements like tan, gum, and jut. The length of the arm allowed us to practice head movement. Maybe MJ might be dated, but the general idea of a big wooden thing to practice your WC on isn’t completely ridiculous.

Thoughts?

2

I’ve used the spring loaded arms and the ridgid ones and what I have found is that the ridgid arms “force” you to move and angle and use footwork more then the spring ones.
Since the springs have give, we end up moving the arm into position instead of moving ourselves.
I think that a ridgid spring mounted head would be cool or a hard “anatomically correct” body would be better.
I am not a fan of putting it on wheels/casters, but I do like it when it “moves” with my strikes and it should be well weighted.

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[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1012156]I’ve used the spring loaded arms and the ridgid ones and what I have found is that the ridgid arms “force” you to move and angle and use footwork more then the spring ones.
Since the springs have give, we end up moving the arm into position instead of moving ourselves.
I think that a ridgid spring mounted head would be cool or a hard “anatomically correct” body would be better.
I am not a fan of putting it on wheels/casters, but I do like it when it “moves” with my strikes and it should be well weighted.[/QUOTE]

Agreed.. But an “anatomically correct body” isn’t what the jong was going for, it’s creating specific angles and zones to move through, around…

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[QUOTE=YungChun;1012161]Agreed.. But an “anatomically correct body” isn’t what the jong was going for, it’s creating specific angles and zones to move through, around…[/QUOTE]

The more it resembles the body, the more those zones will be “correct” and “direct”.

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[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1012165]The more it resembles the body, the more those zones will be “correct” and “direct”.[/QUOTE]

Disagree.. Because the dummy is presenting all zones at once…because it’s static. A human body cannot offer all zones wrt bridges at once in a static manner.

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[QUOTE=YungChun;1012167]Disagree.. Because the dummy is presenting all zones at once…because it’s static. A human body cannot offer all zones wrt bridges at once in a static manner.[/QUOTE]

Which is exactly one of the various reasons why it doesn’t translate to combat against another human being.

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[QUOTE=Knifefighter;1012171]Which is exactly one of the various reasons why it doesn’t translate to combat against another human being.[/QUOTE]

It offers all zones so you can move through all zones.. If you don’t move your body into these various zones then it doesn’t translate.. You don’t do VT so of course it doesn’t translate to what you do, understand or even attempt to understand because your sole purpose here is to troll.

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I’m not a wing chun guy and i don’t know if this conflicts with the whole centerline theory thing, but how about making the body able to twist? To further explain, trying to simulate a human torso by making it able to twist 90* left and right, but the further it turns away from natural position the tension and pull increases and it takes more effort to push it further? maybe use some sort of internal spring system. I don’t know, i’m working on a scale model but for a specialized jong.

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[QUOTE=Tao Of The Fist;1012179]I’m not a wing chun guy and i don’t know if this conflicts with the whole centerline theory thing, but how about making the body able to twist? To further explain, trying to simulate a human torso by making it able to twist 90* left and right, but the further it turns away from natural position the tension and pull increases and it takes more effort to push it further? maybe use some sort of internal spring system. I don’t know, i’m working on a scale model but for a specialized jong.[/QUOTE]

The idea is that it doesn’t move (turn) in order to force you to move.

The fixed nature of the arm positions, etc was not a design error/limitation, rather the point…

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[QUOTE=YungChun;1012185]The idea is that it doesn’t move (turn) in order to force you to move.

The fixed nature of the arm positions, etc was not a design error/limitation, rather the point…[/QUOTE]

It was just an idea… :frowning:

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[QUOTE=YungChun;1012167]Disagree.. Because the dummy is presenting all zones at once…because it’s static. A human body cannot offer all zones wrt bridges at once in a static manner.[/QUOTE]

I disagree with your disagreement.
LOL !
In terms of visual cues and angle understanding, the closer something appears to what you will face in reality, the better.
Its sort of like fighter pilot simulations and such, teach the mind to see a certain way and it works that way.
The dummy is NOT a fighting tool because it does not fight, if it is a target tool, then it must show the right targets, if it is a tool for developing angles and zones for striking in certain ways, then it must show those angles and zones in the closest possible way.

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[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1012189]I disagree with your disagreement.
LOL !
In terms of visual cues and angle understanding, the closer something appears to what you will face in reality, the better.
Its sort of like fighter pilot simulations and such, teach the mind to see a certain way and it works that way.
The dummy is NOT a fighting tool because it does not fight, if it is a target tool, then it must show the right targets, if it is a tool for developing angles and zones for striking in certain ways, then it must show those angles and zones in the closest possible way.[/QUOTE]

How in the world is a static device supposed to offer all possible zones at once while also being anatomically correct?

It can’t.. If you think it can then how?

Unless it was to be able to move into different positions for each zone, and then it would certainly not be static.

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[QUOTE=Tao Of The Fist;1012187]It was just an idea… :([/QUOTE]

No problem… Keep thinking!

I made a dummy arm thing when I started training. Late at night I would attach it to the telephone pole outside my house and work my moves… My device (which I still have) used a solo-flex joint to allow the arm to move with resistance..

In the end what you find is that there is really no substitute for training with a live resisting partner.

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[QUOTE=YungChun;1012192]How in the world is a static device supposed to offer all possible zones at once while also being anatomically correct?

It can’t.. If you think it can then how?

Unless it was to be able to move into different positions for each zone, and then it would certainly not be static.[/QUOTE]

Well, it can’t do ALL but as much as possible, for as many correct angles as possible.
We don’t fight smooth trees, we fight bodies with cavities and angles, with shoulder and elbows.
Those things make a big difference in a fight, a low line attack that goes perfect on the dummy, get “blocked” by an elbow that is always there on an arm, but never there on the dummy.

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The Wooden Dummu used in TWC is built so that the body of it will actually move (slide left-or-right) when hit or kicked hard from an angle - and this is an improvement that I reccommend to all wing chun stylists - as the movement will more closely resemble an opponent’s reaction.

In addition, I’ve padded the entire WD (except for the arms and leg, of course) - so you can go full power, which is also an improvement: again more realistic training. (And I’ve come to prefer often using very thin, semi-fingerless bag type gloves in this regard - so that I now can hit, kick, elbow, and knee as hard as i want.

In addition, sometimes I remove the arms and leg and basically use the WD as a kind of heavy bag that will move laterally when blasted.

As for the actual WD moves and sequences - I believe one should always be experimenting in this regard, so that you’re using the entire WD as a kind of spontaneous shadow-boxing apparatus that you will actually contact and improvise on.

And on a final note, and as mentioned on another thread, I don’t believe that anything more than once (or possibly twice) a week sessions on the WD is beneficial (once you’ve learned the sequences)…since working with a live partner is always a more beneficial training.

Keep this in mind, though: One of the biggest advantages to using the WD is the opportunity to develop powerful striking at short range while contacting a limb with the arm you’re not striking with, ie.- near simultaneous block-and-strike…

as well as using the same arm that may have just redirected or parried an opponent’s limb to continue on into the opponent’s body or head for a strike: again, a short range training device to work on powerul strikes and bridging all at the same time - from close range.

Once you finally get it that wing chun is meant to be used primarily as a close range striking system - you’ve been liberated from the idea that it can do things it’s not very efficient at…and seeing it for what it really is - it becomes better in its application.

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In the end what you find is that there is really no substitute for training with a live resisting partner.

That’s just it, it is NOT supposed to, just like a HB isn’t supposed to either.
But it is suppose to be an aid for solo training VS a live opponent.
Now, you obviously can’t train combative foot work on it, or counters, but what you can train is HOW to ATTACK a “presented form”.

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[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1012196]That’s just it, it is NOT supposed to, just like a HB isn’t supposed to either.
But it is suppose to be an aid for solo training VS a live opponent.
Now, you obviously can’t train combative foot work on it, or counters, but what you can train is HOW to ATTACK a “presented form”.[/QUOTE]

Agreed and the WD offers forms in all zones..along with “stiff resistance” the ability to resist energy, feed it back, etc..

One of the complaints you’ll here is that during ChiSao the partner will become stiff and non-compliant.. The dummy is as stiff as it gets.. (no jokes please ;)) Forcing you to move and adapt via movement and change..

I think it is fine for what it is… BUT as I said you will get more out of a live resisting partner. The WD and other drills are what I and some others call “perfection work” and I think it is fine for what it is.

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this is a interesting and funny bit on william cheung and the dummy

"years later in 1973 i started teaching and on one of my trips back to hong kong at the end of the decade i haeard someone had made a supposed mechanical wooden dummy. It supposedly moved at three speeds, slow, medium, and fast. I asked Wong Shung Leung if it was true and he confimred it> the man who built it apparenly had studied with oen of yip’s students and was quite an engineer.

So i went with koo to have alook the man lived in a 600 square foot apartment on the third floor. I said i’d heard about this mechanical wooden dummy, He said that he has spent three years building it and it worked very well.When i asked him where it was he pointed down a corridor toward a sliding door. I walked over and opended the door.The man said that the dummy was next to the toilet andi shoudl walk in and close the door behind me.

I stepped in and the dummy came to life throwing punches and kicks. I fell onto the toilet and tried blocking attacks but they were too fast. It hit me me in the groin,at which point i heard the engineer yell “sibak, do you want me to make it go faster!?”

“No!” i shouted “make it go slower! make it stop!” it hurt but it as funny.

His mechanical wooden dummy proved less thanm spectacular when it came to training never the less i cant help but think that if one were to use modern computerizd sensors and a remote control it might be possible to build a dummy that could track your position position and launch realistic attacks that foced you use to footwork and proper technique.

this would be an interesting way to take the wooden dummy to a new stage

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Do you know what you have after you upgrade and improve a dummy? A dummy.

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[QUOTE=Tom Kagan;1012337]Do you know what you have after you upgrade and improve a dummy? A dummy.[/QUOTE]

Should you update the wooden man? Do what you like but remember it’s wood for a reason. Has it’s 3 arms and leg for a reason. Is called a wooden man (not dummy!) for a reason!

I wouldn’t say padding it up is an upgrade, as that’s what your 3 section wall bag can (or should!) be used for.

Spinning, springing and even floating blooming bodies are just variations to the frame to be honest, and most experiements were probably already done before the final product was born by Ip Man. It’s fixed for a reason!

So, in short, why upgrade something that already has it’s purpose and is serving it very well indeed. If only for the lucky people who have been taught well…