Juk Jong - Bamboo Dummy

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
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With In the Wing Chun Yuen Kay San system there is a freestyle Bamboo Dummy.

I have not heard of any practioners in America who uses this Dummy

Does anyone here know where to obtained a Bamboo dummy or what it looks like?

Does anyone here use the Bamboo Dummy?

After, the Muk Yan Jong is used, allowing a student to pretend they have an enemy present in training. With a classmate in chi sao, a student must be careful not to cause harm, but with a dummy more power is possible. This brings the techniques together, giving the practitioner flexibility.

Also this statement about the regular wooden dummy seems to mean one can use power on the dummy? is this correct. Most Yip Man students say they never use power on the dummy. Just proper structure?

In Yuen Kay-San Wing Chun Kuen, there is also a Juk Jong (Bamboo Dummy) that has twelve bamboo hands. The Juk Jong methods are all free-style, using the only the methods of Wing Chun Kuen as guidelines. The Juk Jong was used many years ago on the Red Junks. They would put bamboo arms through the cabins that had weights on the back ends. In use, they functioned like the Lien Wan Sa Bao (Linked Chain Sand Bags- a group of sand bags hung together). If a student is slow, they will be hit by the return of a previously struck arm (or sand bag).

Here is some information concerning the Juk Jong I found interesting!

cite information:

http://www.w1ng.com/wing-chun-practitioners-leung-dai-chiu-teacher-of-wing-chun-kuen/

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080330095621AAHl0Xp

http://www.wingchunkuen.com/sumnung/articles/article_leung01.html

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The dummy serves its purpose, you just have to decide what you wanna use it for.

I hope that I live to see that day where we will have holographic training partners ALA Star trek: the next generation, because that would be so freaking cool !!

One can only imagine the level we could take our MA skills if we had holographic training partners !!

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you should not be trying to kill the dummy with every move. that defeats the purpose of training the dummy

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[QUOTE=Pacman;956729]you should not be trying to kill the dummy with every move. that defeats the purpose of training the dummy[/QUOTE]

At different stages you will do different things with the dummy, as a tool it serves multiple purposes.

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[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;956730]At different stages you will do different things with the dummy, as a tool it serves multiple purposes.[/QUOTE]

So true. The Dummy is to build proper use of fighting power. But the dummy Form can be practiced in air. This way you build flow. An increase flexibility.

In the Yuen kay san we have three Jongs

Muk Yan Jong - Wooden Dummy for building power, conditioning, proper structure, correct alignment and footwork posistioning.

Juk Jong - Freestyle bamboo dummy for conditioning, free flow, continous attack and defend, getting use to retraction or reaction of the arms.

Hong Jong - The Air Dummy is is Yin way of doing the Dummy form. One benefit is building Chi the Yin way by practicing the form repetitiously. Also you can strecth out the arms as well and get fuller extension thus building more follow through power. You are developing Chi in a different way but also you can continously flow with out obstructions. Availability is another thing. The air dummy can be done anywhere. or slightly modified upon a tree.

But sanjuro I don’t usually agree with you. But I was actually thinking of the Holographic star trek thing today. Your right that would be totally cool. But that would elimanate alot classroom or dojo training too. People would just log on to a holodeck all day to fight and train martial arts.

Heres a wierd ID take the matrix’s Idea where you can down load and Martial Art system into your brain. And then go on a holodeck to harness the skills and muscle memory to go with your knowledge…

Wow I hate to fight that guy…

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[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;956730]At different stages you will do different things with the dummy, as a tool it serves multiple purposes.[/QUOTE]

what are the different purposes? i know of only one use of the dummy

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[QUOTE=Pacman;956733]what are the different purposes? i know of only one use of the dummy[/QUOTE]

The dummy can be used to drill your feel, to condition, to drill the stability, the solidness of your deflections, to drill the placement of your centerline and more.
It can be done at a slow and “soft” pace or it can be banged like a Tijuana Hooker on a friday night after payday.
You get out of the dummy what you put in, you put in half baked effort, you get hal baked effort.
Of course, you don’t have to agree, to each their own.

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Here is the bamboo dummy and some of it’s applications http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pjs-roWT1zw

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[QUOTE=Pacman;956733]what are the different purposes? i know of only one use of the dummy[/QUOTE]

What is the one purpose you know of?

Are you familiar with kuit kuen that speaks about the dummy?

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[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;956741]The dummy can be used to drill your feel, to condition, to drill the stability, the solidness of your deflections, to drill the placement of your centerline and more.
It can be done at a slow and “soft” pace or it can be banged like a Tijuana Hooker on a friday night after payday.
You get out of the dummy what you put in, you put in half baked effort, you get hal baked effort.
Of course, you don’t have to agree, to each their own.[/QUOTE]

haha good one about the hooker

from what i know, the purpose of the dummy is for drilling combo movements efficiently. it is not used to develop power

to be fast in your combos you do not want to manhandle the dummy with every movement because for one it is not necessary to use much strength to deflect an arm and two it will slow you down with tension

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[QUOTE=Pacman;956804]haha good one about the hooker

from what i know, the purpose of the dummy is for drilling combo movements efficiently. it is not used to develop power

to be fast in your combos you do not want to manhandle the dummy with every movement because for one it is not necessary to use much strength to deflect an arm and two it will slow you down with tension[/QUOTE]

Okay I agree with constant use of stiff power and rigidness. However I have always read and heard the dummy is for power training. You hit the dummy alot harder than actual training partner.

Are you familiar with the Wing Chun Maxims on the dummy form???

Maxims of Wing Chun

Wing Chun Kuen Kuit

Wing Chun Training Proverbs

  • The Wooden Man develops use of power.

http://www.wcarchive.com/articles/maxims-kuen-kuit.htm#Wing_Chun_Training_Proverbs

The Wooden Man

  • There are 108 movements for the Wooden Man; repeated practice brings proper use of power.

  • Steps vary and always maintain close contact with the Wooden Man.

  • Power starts from the heart and shoots towards the centerline of the Mok Yan Jong.

  • Up, down, back and forth, the movements are continuous.

  • Power improvement cannot be predicted.

  • The arm bridge sticks to the hands of the Wooden Man while moving; adhesion power when achieved will be a threatening force.

  • Power can be released in the intended manner; use of the line and position will be proper and hard to defeat.

http://www.wcarchive.com/articles/maxims-kuen-kuit.htm#The_Wooden_Man

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no i have not heard that but i guess it can help you dev. power since you are hitting a solid object and thta will help you check your structure

but from what i learned that is not the focus

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[QUOTE=Pacman;957036]no i have not heard that but i guess it can help you dev. power since you are hitting a solid object and thta will help you check your structure

but from what i learned that is not the focus[/QUOTE]

Pacman: No the Mok Yan Jong develops more than one thing. Just as SLT develops Chi and shortpower. SLT also develops other things as well. The Mok Yan Jong sole purpose is not to develop power or condition your limbs. But that is apart of one the purposes.

Pacman said:

dummy is for drilling combo movements efficiently

Pacman, Isn’t it possible to practice combo moves with a partner? by one self(shadow boxing), or with a mirror. What added advantage does a dummy give. Why is the dummy wood instead of something soft that won’t hurt your arms??? How do you condition your arms to take impact from a hard stylist like Hung Gar??? Do you believe the only purpose of the dummy is to practice combinations??? Why is there a form??? Is it only free style for the wooden dummy??? I thought the Bamboo dummy was solely for freestyle and the wooden dummy was for training power…Please share you view???

One should practice the Mok Yan Jong

Even Pace with a continous flow.

Fast with snappy strikes.

Slow with hard strikes

Soft with light force and slow with emphasize on proper structure, alignment and application.

Would you agree with this?

If you practice the Jong ten times a day utilizing these four applications wouldn’t you say one would have a rounded skill increase?

Here is one source I found concerning Sum Nung Wing Chun:

After, the Muk Yan Jong is used, allowing a student to pretend they have an enemy present in training. With a classmate in chi sao, a student must be careful not to cause harm, but with a dummy more power is possible. This brings the techniques together, giving the practitioner flexibility.

http://www.w1ng.com/wing-chun-practitioners-leung-dai-chiu-teacher-of-wing-chun-kuen/

Also what else do YKS Sifus’ and Practioners say about utlizing power concerning th Mok Yan Jong?

Please share your opinion???

ps. I am really enjoying this discussion.

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If you find yourself wanting more than one kind of dummy to have around, you may instead want to consider finding smarter people with which to practice.

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most moves are either seperate or at most two moves, normally a block and then attack. There are no combos in vt. Seperate moves done with flow but every one could be changed into something else. Might just be the wording but combos are stagnant sequences not flowing moves.

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[QUOTE=bennyvt;957170]most moves are either seperate or at most two moves, normally a block and then attack. There are no combos in vt. Seperate moves done with flow but every one could be changed into something else. Might just be the wording but combos are stagnant sequences not flowing moves.[/QUOTE]

Actuallly I have to strangely agree with you. When pacman was speaking I assumed flowing techniques automatically because he is a YKS practioner which centers around flow, softness, and redirection of force.

Bennyvt and Tom Kagan are you familiar with the Bamboo Dummy used in many mainland WC curriculm?

But as for Pacman I can merely speculate. How ever there are several Defend and simultaneous Attack combinations one can drill to make one accuracy and precision alot better. But also one should constantly strike the wooden man contionously with out breaks with continous flow of motion. But I get the idea of isolated drilling.

But please by all means Pacman share your view on combination drilling.

I for one think that combo practice can be beneficial. After all the Kuit Kuen says to drive down the middle and execute three moves at once. However with WC one does not premeditate his attack but feels for hits as he gains connection through a bridge. His sensitivity training it what leads him to contionously hit his opponents openings in a flowing matter.

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yes i do not mean combos like a rigid premediated combo attack. i mean being able to flow from one move to another in a continuous motion

you asked why not do them in the air? well you can, but its harder to visualize without the dummy and with the dummy you learn the feeling as you work with the arms

you also asked why its made of wood. it really doesnt have to be. back then they made it out of wood because that was the easiest material to aquire adn to work with. (no plastics or foams back then. the only other alternative would have been stone or metal)

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Within the seed of any motion in WCK, there are a myriad of changes, and that is why there are no fixed combos of any sort in WCK.

I was introduced to the Juk Jong by my sifu, Kwan Jong Yuen, over 25 years ago. He showed me a sequence of moves like Dan Chi Sao, and later, when I studied under Hawkins, he was big on using spring based dummy arms which Ho Luen had made for him.

Like Tom said, it’s better to practice with live (and smart) opponents than the Juk Jong.

I always joked with my students, sand bag training, Jong training, and other bag training is for students you don’t like…(or at least Chi Sao or want to have contact with)

As for the executing of 3 moves - it is more of understanding to use your feet (steps), torso and hands to arrive together (San Zhao yi Qi Dao/Sam Jiu Yat Chai Do) and comes from Yue Fei’s martial essays…here’s a copy of it from the Chen Tai Ji manuals in English:

http://www.chinafrominside.com/ma/taiji/chenchangxingIWMA.html

“Important formula says: taking a step and entering (one) must advance body, (the movement is) real only if body and hands arrive together, in the method there is a formula about where to get it from, (once) you understand this principle, (you will realize) how miraculous it is.”

That is the origin of 3 moves executing at the same time.

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[QUOTE=chusauli;957211]Within the seed of any motion in WCK, there are a myriad of changes, and that is why there are no fixed combos of any sort in WCK.

I was introduced to the Juk Jong by my sifu, Kwan Jong Yuen, over 25 years ago. He showed me a sequence of moves like Dan Chi Sao, and later, when I studied under Hawkins, he was big on using spring based dummy arms which Ho Luen had made for him.

Like Tom said, it’s better to practice with live (and smart) opponents than the Juk Jong.

I always joked with my students, sand bag training, Jong training, and other bag training is for students you don’t like…(or at least Chi Sao or want to have contact with)

As for the executing of 3 moves - it is more of understanding to use your feet (steps), torso and hands to arrive together (San Zhao yi Qi Dao/Sam Jiu Yat Chai Do) and comes from Yue Fei’s martial essays…here’s a copy of it from the Chen Tai Ji manuals in English:

http://www.chinafrominside.com/ma/taiji/chenchangxingIWMA.html

“Important formula says: taking a step and entering (one) must advance body, (the movement is) real only if body and hands arrive together, in the method there is a formula about where to get it from, (once) you understand this principle, (you will realize) how miraculous it is.”

That is the origin of 3 moves executing at the same time.[/QUOTE]

Excellent response Robert and Pacman…

So whats the benefit of Juk Jong?

How is the difference in benefits with a Mok Yan Jong in contrast to a Juk Jong???

Robert do you have any pictures or videos of a Juk Jong???

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[QUOTE=Tom Kagan;957080]If you find yourself wanting more than one kind of dummy to have around, you may instead want to consider finding smarter people with which to practice.[/QUOTE]

Wow, Tom. I’m impressed. You’ve made a joke, albeit a dry-humour kind. Still lurking around, I see. Cheers! :wink: