[QUOTE=chusauli;957211]Like Tom said, it’s better to practice with live (and smart) opponents than the Juk Jong. [/QUOTE]
its important to learn how to apply things in a realistic situation, but if you start off with that and not with something like a dummy it can be difficult
in an extreme example to illustrate my point imagine if someone taught you the jab. then he put you in the ring with mike tyson and said “ok now use it”…you would never be able to learn how to apply it
[QUOTE=Pacman;957237]its important to learn how to apply things in a realistic situation, but if you start off with that and not with something like a dummy it can be difficult
in an extreme example to illustrate my point imagine if someone taught you the jab. then he put you in the ring with mike tyson and said “ok now use it”…you would never be able to learn how to apply it[/QUOTE]
Wow…thats terrifying…I can really see that approach. Thats a great way to prove your point. I think the dummy gives a tactile way of drilling a technique over and over again. It gives some resistance rather than drilling mere air. An of course the dummy aides increasing muscle memory through tactile stimulation.
But this is my opinion albeit a good one. What do you think Chausli?
[QUOTE=Pacman;957237]its important to learn how to apply things in a realistic situation, but if you start off with that and not with something like a dummy it can be difficult
in an extreme example to illustrate my point imagine if someone taught you the jab. then he put you in the ring with mike tyson and said “ok now use it”…you would never be able to learn how to apply it[/QUOTE]
That’s a bit ASS backwards. The reason my students and grandstudents enter the ring/cage is because from day one, I teach them to accept things like takedowns, jabs, crosses, hooks, uppercuts, Thai roundhouse kicks and the like against them and what people on the street will be throwing at them. Few people will attack with Karate punches or WCK punches shown in many classes.
Using a Juk Jong will not help you against those tools - Only training against them will help you.
[QUOTE=Yoshiyahu;957221]Excellent response Robert and Pacman…
So whats the benefit of Juk Jong?
How is the difference in benefits with a Mok Yan Jong in contrast to a Juk Jong???
Robert do you have any pictures or videos of a Juk Jong???[/QUOTE]
A Juk Jong can be made in the pattern of a 5 when you roll a dice. I have no pictures for you. 5 spring arms on a flat board and instant Juk Jong…go see the youtube video again.
Again, I think the Juk Jong is only useful if you live in Communist China, there is a martial arts ban, and have to train solo/secret. Or you take your big sweaty, smelly student and tell him to practice with that the next hour or until class is over…and advise him of Irish Spring and the benefits of other deodorant soaps.
Both Muk Yan Jong and Juk Jong are used solo - Muk Yan Jong is more important of the two. IN MYJ, you really step in and hear the sound - 1 sound for three moves is teaching you alignment and timing. Example - Tan Sao/Jing Jeung, Sam Gwok Ma.
[QUOTE=chusauli;957262]That’s a bit ASS backwards. The reason my students and grandstudents enter the ring/cage is because from day one, I teach them to accept things like takedowns, jabs, crosses, hooks, uppercuts, Thai roundhouse kicks and the like against them and what people on the street will be throwing at them. Few people will attack with Karate punches or WCK punches shown in many classes.
Using a Juk Jong will not help you against those tools - Only training against them will help you.[/QUOTE]
i dont know why you are so rude, but oh well. in any case your comments are confusing.
i never said anything about not accepting any other type of attack. its just that you need to train in stages. if you jump to the final stage, application in a live and stressful pressure situation, without developing proper forma and coordination etc. you will not fully understand the principles behind the 12 san sik or the wooden dummy or whatever you are trying to learn and you will not be able to apply it skillfully
then you will think you understand WC, but in reality you only understand it from a superficial level. you wont fully understand the yiu dim because you were never able to apply it properly. then you will get bitter and pick up a fighting style whose emphasis is on physical toughness and strength vs skill like muay thai and get a “im doing muay thai no wait im actually wing chun, well all arts are the same aren’t they?” philosophy
in short, you will end up like terrence!
and regarding your students in the ring. kudos to any of them who have any success but to say they are fighting with wing chun is beyond a stretch.
they are not using wing chun. i am not critiquing their heart or hard work or skill in any way, but sorry…‘protecting the center’ and having proper ‘structure’ are not unique to WC and not enough to qualify anyone as fighting with wing chun.
if that were the case, most pro boxers would qualify as wing chun fighters
[QUOTE=Yoshiyahu;957177]… Tom Kagan are you familiar with the Bamboo Dummy used in many mainland WC curriculm?[/quote]
Yes.
And?
[QUOTE=Pacman;957264]then you will get bitter and pick up a fighting style whose emphasis is on physical toughness and strength vs skill like muay thai and get a “im doing muay thai no wait im actually wing chun, well all arts are the same aren’t they?” philosophy[/QUOTE]To have the opinion that Muay Thai favours conditioning and strength over skill just shows your total ignorance. Muay Thai is probably as nuanced an art as Wing Chun. Just because it is different doesn’t make it inferior.
You are also overlooking the fact that when similarly trained fighters compete/fight - assuming similar skill levels - the one with superior conditioning and/or strength will win.
The only reason why old “Tai Chi masters” “win” against young people is because they only engage in cooperative demos like chi sau and push hands.
no never used it. Totally agree with the combos, wording makes a big difference. I was taught you can practice anything on the dummy. From simple bong sao practice from slt to add lib spontaninus moves- two man drills etc. Only limited by your imagination. But a solid foundation of techniques should be practiced before just making it up as it may not be the best response for that attack.
[QUOTE=CFT;957306]To have the opinion that Muay Thai favours conditioning and strength over skill just shows your total ignorance. Muay Thai is probably as nuanced an art as Wing Chun. Just because it is different doesn’t make it inferior.
You are also overlooking the fact that when similarly trained fighters compete/fight - assuming similar skill levels - the one with superior conditioning and/or strength will win.
The only reason why old “Tai Chi masters” “win” against young people is because they only engage in cooperative demos like chi sau and push hands.[/QUOTE]
never said one was superior than the other. simply pointed out the differences in emphasis
You are also overlooking the fact that when similarly trained fighters compete/fight - assuming similar skill levels - the one with superior conditioning and/or strength will win.
i am completely aware of this
[QUOTE=Pacman;957311]never said one was superior than the other. simply pointed out the differences in emphasis.[/QUOTE]Who says? If you fight you’d need all of those, whether you train Muay Thai or Wing Chun.
There is an old saying:
“Yat daam, yee lik, saam kung fu”
“First courage, second strength, third skill”.
[QUOTE=Tom Kagan;957297]Yes.
And?[/QUOTE]
What benefits does one gain from practicing the Juk Jong???
Do you feel the Juk Jong is a piece of equipment left out of most WC systems here in America???
[QUOTE=CFT;957306]To have the opinion that Muay Thai favours conditioning and strength over skill just shows your total ignorance. Muay Thai is probably as nuanced an art as Wing Chun. Just because it is different doesn’t make it inferior.
You are also overlooking the fact that when similarly trained fighters compete/fight - assuming similar skill levels - the one with superior conditioning and/or strength will win.
The only reason why old “Tai Chi masters” “win” against young people is because they only engage in cooperative demos like chi sau and push hands.[/QUOTE]
What would happen if if those old Tai Chi Masters spent a life time fighting younger resisting opponents. What would happen if those same Tai Chi masters with years of fighting experience were to fight a younger well condition and unskilled fighter?
[QUOTE=Yoshiyahu;957334]What would happen if if those old Tai Chi Masters spent a life time fighting younger resisting opponents.[/QUOTE]They don’t though.
What would happen if those same Tai Chi masters with years of fighting experience were to fight a younger well condition and unskilled fighter?
It depends on the age and fitness of the Tai Chi “master” and whether the skills gap can bridge the difference in age, fitness and conditioning.
[QUOTE=CFT;957339]They don’t though.
CFT, Thank you very much for your expedient response.
It depends on the age and fitness of the Tai Chi “master” and whether the skills gap can bridge the difference in age, fitness and conditioning.[/QUOTE]
What I am saying is their skill level, knowledge and cunningness can sometimes defeat a less skilled, more conditioned younger opponent. Sometimes as you get older you acquire what I have heard old man strength. Its different than the strenght of youth.
Also not all Internal/ Tai chi practioners do tai chi for mere health. Especially direct descendants. Although they do not showcase or broadcast their fighting skills. Some Tai Chi fighters can really use it in combat effectively against a resisting opponent. Especially those who live in areas where they have been tried and tested by hooligans and hoodlums. At any rate I guess the answer to this quarry would be in ones perspective based off of pass experiences.
chusauli What benefits does one gain from the Juk Jong?
[QUOTE=Pacman;957264]i dont know why you are so rude, but oh well. in any case your comments are confusing.
i never said anything about not accepting any other type of attack. its just that you need to train in stages. if you jump to the final stage, application in a live and stressful pressure situation, without developing proper forma and coordination etc. you will not fully understand the principles behind the 12 san sik or the wooden dummy or whatever you are trying to learn and you will not be able to apply it skillfully
then you will think you understand WC, but in reality you only understand it from a superficial level. you wont fully understand the yiu dim because you were never able to apply it properly. then you will get bitter and pick up a fighting style whose emphasis is on physical toughness and strength vs skill like muay thai and get a “im doing muay thai no wait im actually wing chun, well all arts are the same aren’t they?” philosophy
in short, you will end up like terrence!
and regarding your students in the ring. kudos to any of them who have any success but to say they are fighting with wing chun is beyond a stretch.
they are not using wing chun. i am not critiquing their heart or hard work or skill in any way, but sorry…‘protecting the center’ and having proper ‘structure’ are not unique to WC and not enough to qualify anyone as fighting with wing chun.
if that were the case, most pro boxers would qualify as wing chun fighters[/QUOTE]
Not rude, just sharing my opinion. You’re reading it as rude.
To say against Mike Tyson is silly; and to ramp it up from inanimate objects to living beings is silly.
Let’s not forget striking is the the most efficient way to protect the center. Striking with authority requires proper alignment. Is the stance and power from WCK or elsewhere? IN WCK, the body is the hammer, the fist the nail.
In YKS WCK, we say “Fang Lut Jik Chung”, in YM WCK, we say “Lut Sao Jik Chung” - WCK not being attached or in contact - one must rush in - this is the essence of WCK at a distance - this way is to build a bridge. How would you purport to get in when the rules have you start out in a distance?
If you know about fighting, all actions build a bridge. An opponent not cooperating with you will not want you to stick to him, and in MMA, you risk then grappling. What do you do?
All the Jok Jong training will not help you.
[QUOTE=Yoshiyahu;957342]
chusauli What benefits does one gain from the Juk Jong?[/QUOTE]
As a sifu, you get rid of the smelly, dumb student you don’t want to Chi Sao with for an hour by telling him, “practice 2000 reps of punching on the sand bag and play Dan Chi Sao on the Juk Jong for the next 20 minutes.”
That is the benefit of the Juk Jong.
[QUOTE=Yoshiyahu;957334]What benefits does one gain from practicing the Juk Jong???
Do you feel the Juk Jong is a piece of equipment left out of most WC systems here in America???[/QUOTE]
Since you read my first post in this thread but do not understand and choose to ask these questions of me, obviously I’m not going to spend time repeating myself.
“Argue with a dummy and you now have two dummies.” – author unknown.
[QUOTE=chusauli;957350]As a sifu, you get rid of the smelly, dumb student you don’t want to Chi Sao with for an hour by telling him, “practice 2000 reps of punching on the sand bag and play Dan Chi Sao on the Juk Jong for the next 20 minutes.”
That is the benefit of the Juk Jong.[/QUOTE]
Ahh, I think I finally I get it!! But, I didn’t know Terrence was smelly too 
Please answer my Question Tom Kagan
[QUOTE=Tom Kagan;957369]Since you read my first post in this thread but do not understand and choose to ask these questions of me, obviously I’m not going to spend time repeating myself.
“Argue with a dummy and you now have two dummies.” – author unknown.[/QUOTE]
Please answer my question my WC brother
1 Peter 3:15 But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, —author Kefa Shimon
[QUOTE=Yoshiyahu;957375]Please answer my question my WC brother[/QUOTE]
I did. I’m not going to repeat an answer you choose to not understand. Reread my first post and answer your own question.
[QUOTE=chusauli;957349]Not rude, just sharing my opinion. You’re reading it as rude.[/quote]
ok my bad. your comments are ASStarded, and likewise not being rude just my opinion.
[QUOTE=chusauli;957349]To say against Mike Tyson is silly; and to ramp it up from inanimate objects to living beings is silly. [/quote]
if ramping up from learning to coordinate ones body by doing movements in the air and against a wooden dummy to live beings is silly, then isnt ramping up from nothing to live beings as you suggested even worse?
[QUOTE=chusauli;957349]
…All the Jok Jong training will not help you.[/QUOTE]
if you read what i wrote i never said jok jong should be all you train. i just said that it can be useful in some aspects of training.