Hi, I started Tradition Wing Chun (Cheung lineage) about 8 months ago, but because of the distance between me and my sifu I can only train there about 2-3 times a month (I practice alot on my own though). Before I started (and still do) Kung Fu San Soo for almost 3 years, but I really enjoy Wing Chun and find it to be much more effective.
Anyway, I just had a few questions about Wing Chun:
I’m really confused about this lineage contraversy and what exactly sets the different lineages apart. It seems like every lineage besides TWC pivots on the balls of their feet when they shift stances… I’m sure there are people from both TWC and other lineages here so I’d just like to know why either way is done… I’d really like to know what are the main differences for those who have trained extensively in BOTH TWC and other WC lineages aswell…
Have you ever had to use Wing Chun in a real fighting situation (“on the street”) and how well did it help you? Were you able to actually “block” (or guard/deflect) many punches, and did any moves not work very well, or not at all? I especially want to know if moves where you circle around outside of an attack (such as off of a roundhouse) using a heun sao or pak choon are effective in real combat. Also, has anyone ever used the TWC entry technique in self defense?
Whenever I practice a move such as a bong sao off of a round punch (moving the arm in a way so I’m on the outside instead of being in range of a second punch) or the bill sao/huen sao I can do those moves alright, but that’s only because I’m working with a cooperating opponent. Whenever I spar with someone (who is defending AND attacking) it’s nearly impossible for me to do any traps or move outside of a roundhouse punch (it gets pulled back to quickly), at what level should I be able to do moves like that effectively against a RESISTING partner?
Does anyone know where would be a good place to get a Wooden wing chun dummy from? I’ve searched all of the internet and found alot of dummies that LOOK like their made well, and at a decent price (600- 1200) but I’m just wondering if anyone knows of a better place than www.woodendummies.net. Also, if you got a dummy from that website above; is it good quality and worth the cost? Do WALL MOUNT Dummies have any disadvantages for training as opposed to the portable ones? (besides not being portable).
Anyone know of good exercises to develope speed or power in short range punches? I just punch (soft :p) objects repeatedly at short range, and do roll punches as quickly as possible holding 15 pound weights… Are there any other techniques that help with developing speed and short range power?
If anyone wants to answer any or all of these questions I’d really appreciate it. I’m really enjoying WC so far, and feel that what I have learned would definitely help me if I ever need to use it, but I still have some concerns about it.
The differences are hard to get into in this thread due to the number of other questions but do a search on it. There’s one very very very long thread by ultimatewingchun that gets into all the details of this as well as the stories surrounding the issue. Key thing is to look at the VT side of things and not blindly accept the TWC version. Keep an open mind and avoid being brainwashed (by either side).
Wing chun usually works well in a real fight situation b/c of the fast hands and aggressive nature. The punches are direct and powerful. Most untrained fighters will not be able to deal with this. As for the trained ones, at the distance fights usually start, the wc person has an advantage to win as well. Sparring however, is a different story due to the difference in distance and env’t as well. Ex is club or in a lineup at the cinema compared to a open mat floor. In real fights you cannot hope to always block everything. Main blocks you do is biu, tan, maybe pow if you up close. Then come gang, gum, pak. Not to many cases where you’d use other hands. Huen I doubt will be used often. For roundhouses I block low ones with legs and mid range ones with seung ha gang or a pak with a gang. If I can move to avoid it I will. Most don’t kick in real fights that way only thing they do is raise the leg when you rush them or try half-a$sed front kicks. The TWC entry you mean jumping in? Yes I have done that. Works well against ppl who never seen it before but those who do can kick the knee down as you jump in.
Always try to biu a hook punch. If you’re really close you can pow it. I do not what you mean by huen on a hook since that seems very strange. Don’t worry so much about “trapping” Those traps you train hardly get opportunities to be used in real situations. Think more about effieciency. Block hit. Block, then hit. Trying to trap hooks is wasting time. Same for jab/cross. ARms get retracted so better to punch after the block.
I know TWC likes using teak for the dummies. I personally think teak is a weak wood to use and thin. Wall is better than others b/c most portables or doorway ones lack a good length and a good “leg”. Also you want your dummy to be the right height and to be able to hit it with force and force in the stance. With non-wall ones that is compromised. Wall ones also allow the dummy to have nice resistance and be “alive” in bouncing back due to the supporting wood slats.
You can get really fast by doing air punching especially if you keep your hands open/or close them only upon completion of the punch. There are those who say that can hurt you as in hyp. extension but many have been fine so far. Your choice. The most important thing is bag punching anyways to develop power.
All fast replies done in 5 min so no editing. If i say sth that sounds stupid blame that Hope these quick replies helped since nobody took the time to answer you yet…
I ACCEPT Tradition Wing Chun… I don’t see any problem with that… If I didn’t I would be too critical of what I’m learning to really asborb what I need to know… HOWEVER, if a closer school of wing chun appeared that had a competent teacher I would most likely go to that one instead… Regardless of wheither or not its Tradition Wing Chun. I personally prefer the TWC movements, as they’re more similiar to what I’ve done before… But by no means do I have any complaints with the other wing chun lineages as I have not ever really experianced it.
I’m alittle confused about some of the terminology you used though… what exactly is a “pow”? A “gang”? I don’t think I do that in my wing chun… or else I just haven’t gotten that far yet :).
Also, what I mean for a heun vs a round house is to first bock it with a bill sao, then circle around with the same hand (heun sao I believe :)) to pin their elbow for a second to get a quick punch to the head or get them off balance… My teacher seems like he’d be able to do it in a fight… But I’m only basing that off of how fast he can do it… Has anyone actually used that technique before? In a real fight that is.
The only traps I can do with some success are are vs multiple straight punches where you use a fook sao for the first and a lop sao for the second (with the other hand) while holding onto the lop-ed hand… Other than that I can’t really pull off any other traps when sparring… Should I not even worry about traps at all then?
I noticed you didn’t include either paks or bong saos in your list of blocks… is that your personal choice, or are they really not effective in combat? The most natural reactions for me are to pak right roundhouse punches when I have my right hand forward and to bill sao left round houses when my right hand is forward (obviously reversed when I have my left hand forward :)). I really like using pak saos for straight punches, but it seems like not many people attack with punches straight enough to be pak-ed…
The wooden dummy I was thinking about getting said it was made of red oak I believe… Is that a good wood in your opinion?
Thanks for the replies every, especially EmptyCup for the quick response :D.
Dont worry about the politics it will only drag your training down. Concentrate on the skills, many families of WC have differences but this does not necessarily make them any more or less effective, a lot will depend on whether the style or lineage is right for you.
Phil Redmond may be able to help you more if your interested in the specific differences as he has trained more than one lineage of WC.
Dont have too many stories to tell you, although some years ago I used to moonlight with a mate doing security gigs for functions etc. The few encounters that happened ended quickly as the we watched each others back and were able to talk down, or break the guys balance and drag him out (rear choke). Best thing for that as empty cup said is be direct, have your hands in front of you (open gesture) and have a trigger rather than waiting to be hit. Like I said I’m a bit older and quieter now and dont have many war stories to share anyhow.
I’m not particulary fond of cross arm blocks (ie: right side block to opponents rh strike), this leaves a large hole in your guard that can be exploited. I prefer more simplistic same arm same side blocking and countering. The only use I see in the cross arm blocks (based on training not reality) are:
where your your opponent overcommits with a rear arm strike, to take balance from the outside.
to bridge to blind side after a stop kick when outside exchange range.
Where you’ve stuffed up and need an option.
The cross arm bong or huen move are not well suited to sparring IMO because they are indirect and the opponent in sparring is often not fully committed or as stated retracts quickly to continue sparing.
I won’t get too caught up in the politics of wing chun… but its still something I’m confused about, especially how the differences occured…
So you also agree that traps aren’t very effective?
you say the bill/huen and cross bong sao aren’t suited for sparring… but are they for actual combat?
It seems like If I just step back slightly and face the punch slightly, without actually moving my hands too much, then immediatly either do a side palm strike or a bill sao to deflect the next punch that it works pretty well… But I haven’t ever actually used it in real fighting so I can’t really say how well it works… just in sparring.
I guess my two main questions now are:
Where is a good place to get a wooden dummy?
and
Do bong saos vs round house punches and bill/heun sao versus round house punches actually work?
IF anyone feels like giving an in depth answer I’d appreciate some information abou the differences between TWC and other WC systems… Especially in the footwork differences.
Thanks again everyone! These answers are very helpful and appreciated :).
So if traps, cross arm blocks and moves that circle around the opponents arm after contact aren’t really effective would you reccomend not to practice them?
Just curious, because so far alot of what I’ve been taught wouldn’t be able to ever be used in street fight if that’s the case, and makes me wonder what exactlly makes wing chun different than other forms of combat if so many techniques can’t be utilized (half of the forms probably have no purpose if thats true).
I don’t know the TWC curriculum, but some of those things are probably meant for emergencies, or when your strike doesn’t get through.
It’s best to have a mindset of aiming straight for the centre (from front, side or whatever angle) and strike straight through and only divert when you can’t get through (i.e. main purpose of chi sau). If you go by this philosophy, you wouldn’t use a bong sau against a roundhouse punch, except as a last resort (i.e. you didn’t see it coming earlier, it’s now in your inner gate and you instinctively throw your arm up and pivot).
All the forms have purpose, but as I understand it and have been taught, for basic fighting, the first form and some footwork are the most important and most of the time you only need SNT and CK. The other forms refine concepts/build on them and teach how to deal with emergencies.
Testing what you learn from the forms (eg. through chi sau) will give you confidence in them and you’ll find out what works best for you in different situations.
I apologize as I used the terms without remembering you are new to the art. A “pow” is the high block right by your ear with the outer forearm. A “gang” is usually meant as the low slicing block with the outer forearm. There is also what is called a high gang which is a higher block but from the outside-in. If you learned siu leem tao you would most likely have learned the gang as most versions now have that in it. It replaced the jum that was taught in that section before. It comes in the second section after the fast tan sau.
If your teacher can pull off the biu-to-pin then he must be really good. For the majority of us that is too much movement to pull off correctly and it’s inefficient. When you say “pin” you mean the arm that’s doing the pinning is a bong sau right? If you want to see if it works have someone throw a hook at you and try to do it. Or even start with a hook already blocked and try to change into a pin with them resisting. Seems hard since the hook is so high and easily disengaged.
You will find that traps work better in the chi sau environment. Just b/c you hardly use them in free sparring or fights doesn’t mean you should not worry bout them…they have their uses in training you to feel and in reflexes. Also in the event that a situation does come up you can use them. Just that normally in a fight or sparring situation opportunities to use them do not often come up if at all.
I did list pak as a secondary block. I prefer not to use them but I have to against boxers since it’s the fastest way to cancel the straights/jabs. Generally I prefer blocks using a wider contact area such as the forearm compared to just the heel of the palm. However you CAN use the pak without blocking with the heel of the palm by using the wrist instead. As for bong, you’ll hardly use it. Unless it’s a low bong. Try to catch a hook with one and you’ll see what I mean.
If you can pull off the pak sau to right hooks when your right hand is forward that is good. However it would be better if you used your left to biu. Since you can biu a left punch you can biu a right one too with your left hand. Why cross arms when you don’t need to? That makes it hard for you to hit at same time too. If you biu you open the guy up more and it’s a safer block in any case in this situation. If you get in the habit of doing a pak across like that you set yourself up for fakes and combos to your open side. An example would be two hooks, one right followed by an immediate left. If you use your right hand to pak the right hook the left hook will be hard to block in sucession.
Another thing is by watching tapes of William and from what others say, it seems as if he favours what your sifu does…the whole going to the outer gates thing. TWC ppl seem not to like staying inside but rather go through steps to go to the outside so I do not want to confuse you. Do what your teacher teaches you for now and decide on your own later if you feel it’s the best way for you or not. Always try things out to see what’s best for YOU. Nobody can decide that better than yourself what you can pull of or not.
As for what namron said Phil is a good guy to ask in a PM if he doesn’t’ reply to this thread. Also what namron said is right…I usually do paks when I get “stuffed” and the guy is very in my face and it’s a flurry. They are faster to execute than the other blocks.
Practicing huen sau is good b/c it trains you to follow the hand with contact. As for street use hardly used. You’ll find you train a lot for what you don’t use but it’s good to have more to use than you need rather than less of what you may need correct? On a realistic level you are right in saying in terms of actual fighting wing chun doesn’t seem much different than other styles. However that is more of a exterior view. The philosophy behind it all is different. Things like chasing the shadow, facing the center, etc…
EC
P.S.
I noticed you say you did san soo before. Is this jimmy woo san soo if I recall his name correctly? Could you elaborate on what you think wing chun does better? San soo is more of an eclectic system that is more “do whatever in the moment” rather than scientific and structured correct? Or is this just the erroneous Inside Kung Fu summary of it?
About the differences in WT.
You need to understand that WT is based on principles more than specific technics. Thats why we dont do scenario based training (he does A you do B, etc)
So after you have learned the “relatively” few technics, your supposed to develope your own interpretation of WT. That happens automaticly when your doing your forms, chi sao etc. Moreover people are different so one practicioner may prefere to use his/her hands in a situation where another would use his feet.
As for the efficiency of WT
There is no doubt about the efficiency of the WT principles. But you need to develope the proper skills in order to execute them. So if you want to be able to use WT in a fight you need to cross train with practitioners of other styles. You also need to train your stamina and do full contact sparring.
The stamina training is because when your about to enter into a confrontation you will start to become scared or anxious, which makes your adrenaline pumping. You will then feel your muscles getting heavy and puls will start pumping faster. Field studies of soldiers during extreme stress has shown them to function at as little as 40% of maximum efficiency, so obviously if your out of shape to begin with you will be out of breath very quickly.
Full contact sparring is because no matter how good a technician you become, you will get hit in a fight, and if your not used to that, you will freeze up for that split second which can make the difference. besides with full contact sparring you learn that you can fight on after being kicked in the private parts, although you dont have that long to finish him of
Thanks so much everyone! I really hadn’t expected to get so many kind and informative replies
I think I did the gang move before… I believe we call it a gan, thats why I was confused… I still don’t quite understand what makes a pow different than a bill sao though :).
Yes, I did and still do San Soo (brought over by Jimmy Woo)… Most of what you hear about it will just be the normal rehtoric lines… San Soo has tons of great throws, sweeps and leverages, which helps cover some areas in my Wing Chun that I haven’t learned.
There are alot of things I think it lacks compared to WC… You never actually even spar with it (atleast you’re taught NOT to)… mainly because its supposed to be “too deadly”. Also, in my opinion the blocks are much too slow to be used against a fast puncher, and they expose your face too often… Obviously these are my OWN conclusions, and some San Soo people work around those areas, but in my opinion it doesn’t really set you up as well as other martial arts to survive a confrontation…
I’m pretty sure that my sifu can do the elbow pinning moves off of a roundhouse… I mean, I never actually just randomly attacked him to see what he’d do… So I don’t know for sure though. And yes, the move that I’m talking about is a cross bong sao where the contact with the round house is absorbed in between the Wu hand and the Bong hand… Then the bonging hand circles around right above the elbow to turn your opponent and then you step forward back into punching range. I have tried it with resisting opponents… but I can never pull it off fast enough… it might just be because my sparring partners try to pull their punches back much faster and with less follow-through than in a real fight… Maybe I just have to develope my skill and speed ****her…
I can use the double bill sao block against a round house fairly effectively though… the one where you do a right bill sao for a left punch, then another bill sao underneath your last bill sao to raise thier arm and move to the opponent’s side.. But I still wonder if I’d be able to do that when someone is REALLY trying to attack me…
Anyway, thanks so much for all the replies, I was hoping to get a TWC perspective aswell, but everyone has been MORE than helpful :).
Please continue with answers and suggestions though, thanks…
pow absorbs the attack and doesn’t really have force behind it
biu is an aggressive block that movies out to meet the attack.
pow is used for when you are really really close into the opponent and he throws a high punch such as a hook and you may not have room to biu.
then again there is also a biu that doesn’t move too but it’s interchangeable with pow. haha confusing I know…but for the most part when I say biu I mean the block that snaps the wrist area out horizontally. The pow is a vertical block with the arm making sortof a 90degree angle by your ear.
as for the bong, it works better with a tan and we call that kwun sau. Good for blocking kicks and aggressive long-arm attacks.
If your going to try the bong against the roundhouse try not to stop the punch so much as deflect as your arm moves up into tan and drives down the central line. This will capture the elbow, aid in exposing the blind side by turning the opponent and the tan will provide protection/quicker reaction to deal with the rear arm.
If you completely stop the roundhouse punch with the bong/wu then IMO you’ve negated any advantage of using your opponents momentum and might as we half step in and larp the inside of the arm with the wu sau hand.
Both of the above scenarios may be able to be used against an strong over committed punch, but I do not believe they are much use in the sparing situation (as previously stated).
In sparing try to covering the lines of attack using simple same arm same side counters (pak, bil, larp). Quicker and much more direct.
I think my problem with the bong/tan (or wu) combonation followed by the movement to to the outside is that I WAIT there to recieve to blow THEN move it…
I think my teacher does it more like what you are suggesting… I’ll have to try it that way… Thanks for the suggestion there :).
Has anyone replied yet that uses Tradition Wing Chun? Although I really appreciate the other WC lineage replies alot of things are different from lineage to lineage obviously, so some things that work in one lineage for whatever reason may not work in another for whatever reason and vice versa…
I guess I’ll PM Phil Redmond some questions if he doesn’t reply here :).
Thanks again for the replies, and please continue with suggestions and answers…
And yes, the move that I’m talking about is a cross bong sao where the contact with the round house is absorbed in between the Wu hand and the Bong hand… Then the bonging hand circles around right above the elbow to turn your opponent and then you step forward back into punching range. I have tried it with resisting opponents… but I can never pull it off fast enough…
That’s 3 moves…maybe that’s why you can’t do it fast enough. Also, what about the opponent’s other hand while you’re doing this?
I can use the double bill sao block against a round house fairly effectively though… the one where you do a right bill sao for a left punch, then another bill sao underneath your last bill sao to raise thier arm and move to the opponent’s side.. But I still wonder if I’d be able to do that when someone is REALLY trying to attack me…
Probably not…how do you cover yourself from a hit from their right hand while you’re using both your arms on their left hand?
“That’s 3 moves…maybe that’s why you can’t do it fast enough. Also, what about the opponent’s other hand while you’re doing this?”
I think the idea is to step back toward the punch and somewhat backwards so that the second punch misses…
I tried doing the bong sao the way someone mentioned above… It works a WHOLE lot better against a resisting opponent… It’s a slight arm change, but it seems to make the opponent think hes going to get through your defense, instead of pulling back, which sets them up to be pinned at the elbow. I think I’d still get hit by the second punch but the movement seems to weaken the second punch alot as they’re turning away from your body… I guess I’ll just have to practice it more… it seems like it would work pretty good if done with proper stepping and speed.
“Probably not…how do you cover yourself from a hit from their right hand while you’re using both your arms on their left hand?”
Well, this is one move I can do in sparring most of the time… The second bil sao also blocks the second punch. The second bil sao just kind of comes under neath the first punch, but ends where a normal left bil sao would be, except you’re on their outside at the end of the movement.
I’d really like to hear some stories from people who had to use wing chun in a life threatening situation… and say how well or how poorly their techniques worked. I’d also like to hear some Traditional wing chun opinions about some of the things I asked; especially about the rotation hand blocks and the pak choons.
Thanks for the replies everyone, they have been very helpful :D.
do a search on the whole real fight thing you’re so keen on. You’ll find that this subject has come up many times. I myself have started and participated in a few similar threads. In one of them I recount in detail when and how I used bong saus in real situations. If i recall correctly I started that one b/c I thought the high bong was not a very good block. The times I’ve used bong were medium and low height. Once (not in a real fight) I asked a friend to put all his force behind a high punch and really try to nail me. I attempted to bong it. The results were not too good
Also keep in mind that real fights don’t mean much. You can win if you are decent sized and chain punch like hell the majority of the time. It’s the full contact sparring or fighting against other well trained martial artists that tell you more about the style.
It’s not that I’m “so keen on real fighting” but personal examples of “real fighting” would be very helpful to me…
I mean, if a master of wing chun (for example) can’t pull off a fairly simple move on a drunk guy, then chances are I’m not going to have much better luck.
I don’t plan on ever getting in the situation to use WC or other martial arts… And I suppose the real skill is AVOIDING those kind of confrontations in the first place.
But besides fun and exercise the only reason I take TWC is so that I can defend myself if need be. It doesn’t have to be the end all be all martial art, or even the “best” one. I enjoy the movements of wing chun more than any other martial art I’ve tried or seen, so that simple fact will allow me to progress much faster and ****her than in a martial art that I did not like, even if it was a “superior” style.
But I would still like to know what I can really pull off, and what others have tried and succeeded in doing, and what didn’t work. Not every situation is the same, but I’m just looking for an idea of what to expect when using wing chun in what it was designed for.
I don’t particularly care about the sport aspect of martial arts, so the results in full contact fighting don’t really help me as much as examples of what actually happened when a WC guy was trying to fight someone who was out to seriously hurt them, rob them, or worse… I’d just like examples of things like:
The most basic question: what level are you in WC and did the moves work?
What if anything were your opponent(s) armed with? What kind of attacks did they use?
Were there any place for moves like pak choons, double bil sao, heun sao, and cross bong sao that move to the opponent’s blind side in that situation?
Thanks for the replies everyone… I guess I’m probably not going to get many answers in this thread either because I’m too new or ask too many questions… I’ll do a search on the topics I want more detail one, but the searches always result in too wide of a range of unrelated topics.
during your 3 years doing san soo did you ever get into a fight?
if you are looking for a good self defense system for everyday use I would think this is a good system to stick with. Like I said you may not use everything you train for but you can definitely use some. Many lean towards boxing, muay thai, ju jitsu. Those all have merits but if you are talking about (not cross training) one system for your needs then I think this would be it.
don’t let the crappy martial arts clips or NHB losses deter you wing chun has been used by many successfully as well
I guess that is really just the bottom line, which is what I was looking for in this thread to begin with.
If WC largely works then I suppose I can slowly work to further my WC without worrying about it…
Some crappy WC clips did leave me a bit concerned though :).
I haven’t gotten in ANY real fights where I would even begin to use any kung fu knowledge…
Thanks for all the replies people, I think I got all my questions answered now… except for the one about heun sao and other blocks that circle around a roundhouse punch. I’ll send a PM to Phil Redmond about that as I’m pretty sure he’s been in some real fights… And may have used those before.
So I don’t know for sure though. And yes, the move that I’m talking about is a cross bong sao where the contact with the round house is absorbed in between the Wu hand and the Bong hand… Then the bonging hand circles around right above the elbow to turn your opponent and then you step forward back into punching range. I have tried it with resisting opponents… but I can never pull it off fast enough… it might just be because my sparring partners try to pull their punches back much faster and with less follow-through than in a real fight… Maybe I just have to develope my skill and speed ****her…