New to Wing Chun... Got some questions

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
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William Cheung fought many times in his day. Most ppl know this during the HK times. I also hear that he also helped take territory for triads due to his skills. Also in Australia he fought often. This information comes from a friend of his that I know. I do not know or have ever met him personally.

Since he teaches what he teaches, and based on is experience, theoretically you shouldn’t worry about the street value of his TWC system. Leavin politics aside, although many don’t always agree with his techniques, some do have value even if not initially apparent.

I do not remember if it was Phil who said this or somebody else. Regardless TWC often blocks first then counters. Many VT sylists say that should be done simultaneously. The explanation of whoever said on this forum sometime back is true…in real fights it’s often the case where you block before attacking. Firstly b/c it’s all you can do sometimes and secondly b/c it can be safer in some way.

Yes try to catch Phil if you can. Thanks for the link btw I will look at it when I have the time.

If you want to learn to fight the fastest way spar hard with full equipment. However make sure you and your opponent hold back for head blows. Getting a concussion is nasty business as it has lasting effects not to mention cutting training while you heal. Use hanging and wallbags often.

However the best way will always be to wait until you have the basics with chi sau and the forms and all. As well as the sparring drills. Free sparring too early will make you have a bad foundation, develop bad habits, and might bring back that old san soo you’re more accustomed to.

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I forgot all about William Cheung’s fights… I guess that means atleast SOMETHING of his works, and if its true that he changed a few things then most likely alot of the system would be different if it didn’t work.

So far I’ve only began chi sao, but have been doing alot of “cross arm drills” where the aim is to counter opponents movements and generally trap them while they’re trying to counter your counter (if you know what I mean :o). Is it too early to begin real sparring (although I have been doing it already)? Will this make my application of techniques too sloppy if I get into sparring before getting the basics in chi sao down?

Thanks everyone for all the replies.

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…then again in those days martial artists were not as exposed to other arts and training regiments…

too early to free spar yes.

not too early to do drills, chi sau, anything on a opponent who’s not all out totally resisting you. as in if he stands there using his hand or hands is ok. If he tries to attack you and evade with all his ability then no not good :smiley:

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Well, I don’t have anything against cross training so that doesn’t bother me :).

So I should spar with someone who is trying to do both attack AND defense? Just stick random strikes and having my partner use basic defense?

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just do what your teacher tells you to do!

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Re: New to Wing Chun… Got some questions

Originally posted by Brithlor
[B]…

Anyway, I just had a few questions about Wing Chun:

  1. I’m really confused about this lineage contraversy and what exactly sets the different lineages apart…

  2. Have you ever had to use Wing Chun in a real fighting situation (“on the street”) and how well did it help you? Were you able to actually “block” (or guard/deflect)…

  3. Whenever I practice a move such as a bong sao off of a round punch (moving the arm in a way so I’m on the outside instead of being in range of a second punch) or the bill sao/huen sao I can do those moves alright, but that’s only because I’m working with a cooperating opponent. Whenever I spar with someone (who is defending AND attacking) …

  4. Does anyone know where would be a good place to get a Wooden wing chun dummy from? …

  5. Anyone know of good exercises to develope speed or power in short range punches? I just punch (soft :p) objects repeatedly at short range, and do roll punches as quickly as possible holding 15 pound weights…

[/B]

My tuppence:

  1. As mentioned, don’t worry about lineage, it will just mess with your head. It’s an interesting subject, but people get caught up in it and it just distracts from the training.

  2. I’ve used WC in self defense. So have my sihings. You will get one or two techniques off and it will be over in the length of a deep breath. If it goes much longer than that, I would run.

  3. The bong does work, but it requires timing. Even if the opponent withdraws, you will have already touched him and executed before the withdrawal. He moves–you move. It’s only a slight deflection and you immediatly move. Also, at your stage, foot work is the most important aspect. W/O correct footwork the techniques are not nearly as effective. For an average student I’d surmise it will be about 2 years they are proficient enough to pull off.

  4. Make sure you get a dummy with the correct arm placement. WC dummies are slightly different that JKD dummies.

  5. DON"T USE WEIGHTS for punching horzontially. They will mess you up in the long run. Just punch in air, against bag and when sparring. You want to build on tricep endurance, less on strength and more importantly work on accuracy.

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Just going to add something about the bag punching…

It’s good to start off will wallbag before proceeding to hanging b/c it allows you to get proper placement and technique first. Hanging bags move around and have a tendency to rotate before you become good enough to hit it center instead of glancing.

Make sure you are correct distance to punch and don’t need to lean forward or reach to make contact. Best distance is with elbow tucked in with a fist’s distance away from your body, see if you can make contact by just punching out and not leaning or reaching.

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Yeah, I do what my sifu instructs me to do… :slight_smile: I just want multiple opinions about this kind of stuff… And I’m taking 2 martial arts, and both teachers have conflicting views on alot of things, so I have to decide some things for myself… but obviously I just do what I’m instructed while I’m in class.

“3. The bong does work, but it requires timing. Even if the opponent withdraws, you will have already touched him and executed before the withdrawal. He moves–you move. It’s only a slight deflection and you immediatly move. Also, at your stage, foot work is the most important aspect. W/O correct footwork the techniques are not nearly as effective. For an average student I’d surmise it will be about 2 years they are proficient enough to pull off.”

I’m not sure if you know which kind of bong I mean. Are you talking about a bong off of a straight punch? The movement I’m talking about is off of a round house punch, and you do a RIGHT bong sao for a RIGHT punch, but you bring your left hand up towards your face, and if your opponent was aiming at your head the blow should land in between both of your wrists. After that the bong sao hand slips underneath your opponents arm and either pins the elbow, or pulls the opponents arm down. At the end of the technique you should fine yourself on the outside of your opponents RIGHT arm (if he through a right punch) with the left arm out of reach. Obviously this move has to be done with proper stepping aswell, especially since the second punch may be right around the corner, and you have to step in a way as to evade that punch and move the first punch in a way as to not slam it right into your face…

Anyway, my original question regarding that move was: I can do that fine in class where my partner is cooperating, but as soon as I try it in sparring (which I’m reading now is something that I should not do yet) the technique kind of falls apart…

Is that the technique you thought I ment? Or did you think it was off of a straight punch?

I’m not even sure if they do that move in every lineage, so that might be confusing some people when I ask about it…

Thanks for the replies everyone… :slight_smile:

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I’m not sure if you know which kind of bong I mean. Are you talking about a bong off of a straight punch? The movement I’m talking about is off of a round house punch, and you do a RIGHT bong sao for a RIGHT punch, but you bring your left hand up towards your face, and if your opponent was aiming at your head the blow should land in between both of your wrists. After that the bong sao hand slips underneath your opponents arm and either pins the elbow, or pulls the opponents arm down. At the end of the technique you should fine yourself on the outside of your opponents RIGHT arm (if he through a right punch) with the left arm out of reach. Obviously this move has to be done with proper stepping aswell, especially since the second punch may be right around the corner, and you have to step in a way as to evade that punch and move the first punch in a way as to not slam it right into your face…

I’ve been doing TWC since 1989 with Rick Spain. I got gold sash in 1995 while we were still aligned with the WWCKFA.

Moving from inside to outside after blocking a round swinging punch in the way you describe is pretty impractical. There is a weak spot moving from the bon through tan as you move the punch past, during which you can get nailed. Also with bon you are usually too close to allow the punch to go past anyway. If you want to “pass” the swinging punch from inside to outside, the bil sao/tseun sao is a better option, though you will probably still need to step backward to do it. The problem with both of these techniques is they require you to stay in a place far enough away for the punch to pass by, but close enough to retaliate. You are still too close to the impact zone, generally the safest place to be with a haymaker or hook punch (other than in another suburb) is well inside the arc.

I also doubt the efficacy of these movements against a nice tight boxer’s hook, which I’d try to weave under or take on the forearms/elbows with a “brush the hair” block, rather than seek a longer bridge.

There APPEARS to be a move in the TWC dummy sets 1&2 that has the application that you describe, but in my Sifu’s and my opinion the application you describe of it is not viable. A better application is using the bon to stop one strike, and then the tan off it to block a second strike, NOT move around the same arm. Or backhand him in the face or poke him in the elye with the tan from the inside.

Against the sort of punch you describe, I might use a bon, but stay inside - after all I may not have the luxury of choice. You can still zone away from the other hand on the inside while you hit him in the face with a side palm, elbow forearm or whatever. You have to deal with his other arm, but from here you have a reasonable amount of contact with his initial punching arm and can control it, so you are still really only dealing with one arm. Then just beat the crap out of him from this position.

We normally start people sparring in a light, controlled fashion at around the same time we start teaching 'em chi sao. Opinions vary, do what your instructor recommends. I haven’t noticed it causing anyone a technical problem.

Martial skill is the least important aspect of self defense. Read “Strong on Defense” by Sanford Strong if you want to understand the more important aspects, or check out the link on “surviving violent crime” in my .sig.

I take multiple MA’s too … can be confusing, but it’s fun.

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Thanks for the reply.

So you’re pretty much saying simply that moves that go outside the opponents roundhouse arm DO NOT work?

What about the bill/choon sao (which just so happens is the only kind of move like that, that I can actually pull off). I know you said it would be a “better” option, but would it still be too impractical? I generally do a bill/punch, then a choon (which basically works to me like a second bill sao…) then lop the elbow and begin roll punching…

Anyway, thanks for the replies everyone, so far practically every one has agreed that moves that move outside the opponents arm are basically worthless, which makes me think of what point training them would be.

Also, if so many things like traps, bong saos, tan saos, etc have little to no function in actual combat what is the point of even knowing Wing Chun? I mean, most people throw roundish punches anyway (atleast to my knowledge) so why not just learn how to punch really hard and know one or two blocks?

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that’s b/c the hook is NOT the only punch out there

don’t look down on the tan sau. That gets used more than biu sometimes and as a block at the least would be the 2nd most important block you’ll use. 3rd is pushing it but definitely no lower than that.

bong has other uses. Even if you have to use it once in the rare occasion at least it was there for you. Better than not knowing what to do in a situation and having no tools to draw from

we went over this point before in the same thread about why it’s better to train some things. these blocks aren’t useless. what can be deemed useless is the context in which they are used. bong doesn’t work the way you are using it or the way other ppl might try to use it. but that does not mean bong itself is useless. there are times when it’s a real life saver.

the forms has so many bong saus. especially chum kiu. there is a reason for that :slight_smile: it’s a very versitile hand…you’ll learn later it has other variations

chook kiu bong, low bong, medium bong, collapsing bong, kwun sau…

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btw

what is “choon” sau?

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Choon sao can be done either off of a CROSS pok sao (defending against a round house or off a bill sao.

The bill sao version is very simple, where you basically do 2 bill saos, the first inside the punch, the second outside the punch in order to move the hand.

For the pok sao… The opponent throws a right hook punch, you do a right cross pak sao, and immediatly swing the othwer hand up with the palm facing AWAY from their arm. That arm moves over the top of the opponents arm and moves into a position where you’re almost touching your right shoulder (this is with your left hand). At the same time the pak sao hand (right hand) shoots straight up to grab the opponents elbow and move him so that the next punch can’t reach you. The left hand now is in a good position to do a back hand or hammer blow to the opponents nose or neck.

It’s faster than it sounds :-P. Just a few days ago I made a few discoveries with this move and I can actually pull it off reliably against two hook punches (chooning the first one, and quickly turning the opponents body before the second one can hit).

Yeah, I still feel that its good to know a variety of techniques as you said, empty cup… I was just curious as to what Anerlich’s opinion was on that matter :).

Also, the “scooping” bong that someone reccomended earlier (forgot who) actually works surprisingly well… I found I just need to be alittle more agressive with both my hands and my footwork when executing it.

I sent a PM to Phil Redmond BTW, I really hope he has a chance to respond.

Thanks everyone, especially emptycup for all the replies… I pretty much have everything answered that I was looking for

BTW, I checked through EVERY Wooden dummy/mook jong thread and didn’t find ONE that discussed places to buy dummies from :frowning: .

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What about your right side - how do you cover it while you’re doing this? Does your opponent just hang his left arm by his side while you’re playing with his right arm with both of your arms?

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???

Emptycup, wrote:
>>I know TWC likes using teak for the dummies.<<

Where did you get that idea from? All TWC people have different preferences for what type of wood they like. I even have a PVC Warrior dummy.

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Brithlor

Over the past 33 years I have trained in different WC sifus in the Yip Man line and 2 that weren’t. I was a sifu in one lineage until I started TWC in 1983. If you would like to email me at; sifu@wingchunkwoon.com I would be happy to answer any question that I’m able to based my experiences in other versions of WCK.

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Thanks so much Phil! I really appreciate that! The Private messaging service here isn’t really good enough as it only allows 1000 characters…

Stevo, I think the idea is to step far enough so that the second punch won’t hit you… I found that if I do the cross arm bong sao that if they throw a straight punch immediatly afterwards that it is deflected at the same time. If they throw a round house then hopefully the move will be fast enough so that the punch never has time to land…

Basically I believe you either step in a way so that the punches don’t hit you or move in a way so it automatically blocks or guards from a second punch… also speed obviously helps…

I can’t do most of those kinds of moves reliably yet but I think I’m getting SOMEWHERE…

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Phil, I just sent you an email, please post if you don’t receive it. (The first 5 letters of the email address should be ulmo BTW :)).

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tight hook

Hey Andrew,
TWC tries to stay out of the boxer’s “tight” range. That’s why Sifu says to keep your arms extended so that the boxer has to reach to hit you. But if he does get into the tight hook range treating his hook as an elbow strike is “one” way to deal with it.

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I got that impresson from Omar and William’s various articles on the wooden dummy. They said they preferred teak because traditional dummies were supposedly made from teak. The dummies in the articles were also made from teak…