[QUOTE=Tom Kagan;1012337]Do you know what you have after you upgrade and improve a dummy? A dummy.[/QUOTE]
***Actually, there’s a number of dummies around here, and I can think of at least two who know basically nothing about the muk yan jong.
You can feel guys who have been working on the dummy, they get sharper actions, sudden, short sharp juts…
to further develop jum and tan dual energy striking with the ballistic element each has, added from dummy training. By using the angles and rigidity of the arms we can move and strike across the dummy arms as we use toi ma, side shuffling steps, pivoting…iow, footwork coupled with striking drills.
We use a high jum strike using the inside forearm against the dummy arm as we strike towards the dummy’s 'head , instead of a high gaun sao that many seem to have adopted. The idea for this is to further re-enforce the dual strike/deflection from dan chi-sao, as you aim to strike while using alignment to be aimed at a persons head. Not a singular lateral force of gaun sao coupled with a low gaun sao too…iow 2 defensive actions ! …the jum strike leads to a cycle from the high jum then becoming a bong ballistic energy , developing the displacing slapping force on the low arm, while the previous defensive action of low gaun sao returns to striking tan elbow alignment…the tan using the outside of the forearm while striking forwards. The tans elbow being kept low and inwards as SLT…
iow one arm is always striking directly, either in duality of energy or coupled with a fully committed defensive arm action ..ie low gaun sao…
cycling arms attacking…coupled with short sharp burst of focused alignment.
Our primary attacking actions involve a jut from tan or a pak from jum , relying on which is leading relative to the opponents leading arm and your tactical positions…
these are developed further from basic levels into sharper repeated workouts on the dummy , rigid arms offer the required resistance for the actions. We adopt angles but use the same facing techniques , so we move along the dummy and cycle or angle in and attack etc…things we cant do with a partner , ask them to offer ‘iron bar’ arms for workouts repeatedly for us…
Obviously the preceding tactical scenarios require 100’s of hours of chi-sao to ingrain intuitive reactions to our relative positions…etc…ie what leading tan side comes into us from left or right, what side we counter angle to…in drills using seung ma, toi ma, shuffle steps , pivoting…all used in sparring.
We also utilize the momentum of the body in motion to coincide with the actions of the arms so we harness the body mass in movement as we strike/deflect across the face , as if we are cuttin gthe way, or cutting off the ring …We learn to also use the momentum of body mass in motion against the opponents, so if it isnt doen correctly we can easily capitalize on mistakes made.
impo the issues mma guys will have is they are trying to equate abstract dummy actions into functional ‘moves’ like KATA. It wont happen and leads to vt kickboxing because the moves are way to slow , over using arms for countering simple punches etc…
If we are developing into attackers, why spend so much time doing redundant arm moves for a simply punch the opponent throws ? iow why do kwan sao…why use a bong AND a tan to block a guys punch, like overkill… no wonder some vt gets its butt handed to it if this is the idea being touted.
you cant copy VT from seeing it in youtubes, never mind understand whats being developed. Like you cant see bjj guys lying on you with body weight until you feel it being done …not all apparent.
A lot of VT is passed down without deep understanding of the fundamentals, so it leads to what it is now …
I think Yung Chun is right. The dummy is not meant to similate fighting at all. It is like Sil Lim in that it is designed to teach center line theory. Sil Lim teaches not only the hand techniques and stance, but also gives reference to center and teaches you to apply your techniques on center. The dummy then allows you to apply this theory while using footwork. It is a way of applying it to a resisting opponent as such without causing injury to either opponent or yourself, but still does not similate fighting as such. This is just learning, just as in the other hand forms. It is learning in a learning environment. You spar with resisting opponents only to train what you have learned while in your learning environment. You can not learn while fighting. If it is really fighting you will not have time to learn much. You just apply what you have learned while in your learning environment. The only thing you achieve in a fight is to practice what you have learned earlier. Otherwise all you get out of it is a flat face and ears that look like vegetables.
The system can seem abstract if you dont know what your developing.
[QUOTE=k gledhill;1012469]The system can seem abstract if you dont know what your developing.[/QUOTE]
Again you say what I am thinking! 
The wooden man does require a training purpose beyond what the 108/116 shows us. As do the forms and weaponry drills.
There are stories of one of Lee Shings more famous students, Joseph Cheng, who was heard by some of his students training on the wooden man, and rather than the ‘clonk clonk’ sound they were used to hearing from the form, they heard a sound like a machine gun. Continuouse and unwielding.
FME When you ‘fill-in’ the pictures in books (with your knowledge of the wing chun ‘seed’), this is what you hear. And this should be what you strive for in wooden man practise.
My opinion of course! 
[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;1012490]Again you say what I am thinking! The wooden man does require a training purpose beyond what the 108/116 shows us. As do the forms and weaponry drills.
There are stories of one of Lee Shings more famous students, Joseph Cheng, who was heard by some of his students training on the wooden man, and rather than the ‘clonk clonk’ sound they were used to hearing from the form, they heard a sound like a machine gun. Continuouse and unwielding.
FME When you ‘fill-in’ the pictures in books (with your knowledge of the wing chun ‘seed’), this is what you hear. And this should be what you strive for in wooden man practise.
My opinion of course! :)[/QUOTE]
no offence but you cant tell by the sound , you have to FFFEEEEELLL 
you can be very soft and relaxed as long as your working the idea.
[QUOTE=Knifefighter;1012171]Which is exactly one of the various reasons why it doesn’t translate to combat against another human being.[/QUOTE]
Just because you have less imagination than a 2 day old newt, doesn’t mean that the world suffers from the same problems.
[QUOTE=k gledhill;1012499]no offence but you cant tell by the sound , you have to FFFEEEEELLL you can be very soft and relaxed as long as your working the idea.[/QUOTE]
Ok I understand that we can train many soft ideals too on the wooden man, but c’mon! 
The wood don’t hit back! So give it some welly and prep those tendons, muscles and bones…
[QUOTE=Knifefighter;1012171]Which is exactly one of the various reasons why it doesn’t translate to combat against another human being.[/QUOTE]
granted, to a degree. although…
boxers use a heavy bag, karateka use a makiwara, grapplers often use a heavy bag/dummy of sorts
its just a training instrument, nothingmore or less
[QUOTE=Spencer;1012171]There are stories of one of Lee Shings more famous students, Joseph Cheng, who was heard by some of his students training on the wooden man, and rather than the ‘clonk clonk’ sound they were used to hearing from the form, they heard a sound like a machine gun. Continuouse and unwielding.[/QUOTE]
dummy, and parking meters…
[QUOTE=LSWCTN1;1012582]dummy, and parking meters…[/QUOTE]
:D;) Well, you may be able to share some more stories like this about Uncle Cheng!
I heard about those darned parking meters :eek: Guess thats what you get when your arms are ‘as wood’
[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;1012586]:D;) Well, you may be able to share some more stories like this about Uncle Cheng!
I heard about those darned parking meters :eek: Guess thats what you get when your arms are ‘as wood’ [/QUOTE]
i actually learnt very little about Joseph Cheng from my family, that particular story is from Steve Morris, who i believe was another outstanding student of Joseph Cheng
[QUOTE=Tom Kagan;1012337]Do you know what you have after you upgrade and improve a dummy? A dummy.[/QUOTE]
The most insightful post on the thread.
[QUOTE=LSWCTN1;1012593]i actually learnt very little about Joseph Cheng from my family, that particular story is from Steve Morris, who i believe was another outstanding student of Joseph Cheng[/QUOTE]
Wasn’t Steve at SENi a few years back? Relaunched his teaching I think, and yes he learnt from Joseph Cheng. As I understand it he was a formidable Kareteka beforehand was he not?
Obviously Uncle Cheng impressed him with his toughness and speed gained by his wooden man training! :D;)
“We have various devices” … LOL
Check out the new and improved “wooden dummy” @ 1:13 :eek:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYI9H7L93iQ
“Weird wild stuff” LMAO
that is one hell of a conversation piece.
[QUOTE=YungChun;1014342]“We have various devices” … LOL
Check out the new and improved “wooden dummy” @ 1:13 :eek:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYI9H7L93iQ
“Weird wild stuff” LMAO[/QUOTE]
That stuff just has to be from the set of “Men Who Stare At Goats”…
[QUOTE=tigershorty;1014368]that is one hell of a conversation piece.[/QUOTE]
No, this is:
