i think also that sometimes we focus too much on competetive fighting. i do not compete, so for me that is not the reason i study/train. i do so for fullfillment of a healthy and happy life. and self defense 
[QUOTE=pateticorecords;1053731] I have also seen skinny little dudes hit a guy twice his size in a vital area and have the big guy crumble like a cookie:p[/QUOTE]
How unsporting of themā¦
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1053710]100% TCMA. No boxing, no MT, no wrestling, no Judo, no BJJ, no TKD, ā¦
- Longfist kick/punch.
- Longfist footwork.
- Longfist elbow.
- SC knee.
- Eagle Craw joint lock.
- Mantis hand combo.
- SC throw.[/QUOTE]
I like this list.
Me:
- Mantis (for the flow)
- SC for throws
- Chen Tai Chi for a little internal and something to do as I gracefully grow old
- Longfist for the hard hitting fist and feet.
Btw
I love these long flaming threads. Itās why I keep coming back - so Iāll play tooā¦
You have train some BJJ to be MMA.
Iāll link you all to a true progressive TCMAer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3jJ-lb7N8A
i even acknowledge Sifu Kwok, heās even went to make friends at the Fut San Hung Sing Kwoon. very respectable.
[QUOTE=MasterKiller;1053526]You canāt because TCMA has no groundfighting.
MMA = multiple ranges, and without a competent ground game, you do not have āMMA.ā[/QUOTE]
Monkeystyle Shaolin. There is a match featured online where a Mstyle fighter trashes his opponent within 1/2 minute. I will try to find it to post it.
what kind of match is it?
[QUOTE=MasterKiller;1053697]Like in this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=082E3TtMuf0&feature=mfu_in_order&playnext=1&videos=5fJuugoFrPQ
As soon as he pops his foot up, anyone with 3 months of real training is going to sweep him. This guy knows just enough to get his students seriously hurt.[/QUOTE]
Iām just wondering how he expects to get any sort of face strike when heās fighting someone who is in the guard. The whole vid is messed up.
[QUOTE=Drake;1053781]Iām just wondering how he expects to get any sort of face strike when heās fighting someone who is in the guard. The whole vid is messed up.[/QUOTE]
Both people have the option of face strikes while one is in the guard. The person inside the guard generally has the advantage in terms of hand strikes to the face (assuming he understands the dynamics of avoiding arm locks and triangles), while the person using the guard generally has the advantage of using up kicks to the face.
[QUOTE=Knifefighter;1053786]Both people have the option of face strikes while one is in the guard. The person inside the guard generally has the advantage in terms of hand strikes to the face (assuming he understands the dynamics of avoiding arm locks and triangles), while the person using the guard generally has the advantage of using up kicks to the face.[/QUOTE]
If you kick to the face, you just broke your own guard. Best route Iāve seen is always to flip them over to the mount or into an arm bar.
If someone in your guard tries to hit your face, just flex your legs out. Iāve used it, and it works just fine. Most anyone ever got in on me was a single hit, and thatās because I was being stupid.
Why am I telling you this? I thought you were the groundfighting mastah?
[QUOTE=MasterKiller;1053686]CMA groundwork is based on the supposition that the attacker wants to remain standing. Even in Monkey. Even in that Tiger and āShaolinā bullsh1t HW108 posted. No control of the opponent on the ground, or concern with securing a dominant position necessary to submit a trained, conditioned fighter.
And that third video is comic gold.[/QUOTE]
And you have 30 years of Monkey training and teaching like I do? Please donāt tell me how monkey style (nu hou quan) fights.
[QUOTE=mooyingmantis;1053800]And you have 30 years of Monkey training and teaching like I do? Please donāt tell me how monkey style (nu hou quan) fights.[/QUOTE]
Blah blah. Until one of you guys that has always had ground fighting even though no one has ever seen it steps up and shows a video thatās half-way decent, itās just more of the same nonsense.
Prove me wrong. Show us your guys āmonkeyā fighting and working for transitions and positional dominance on the ground.
[QUOTE=Drake;1053793]If you kick to the face, you just broke your own guard. Best route Iāve seen is always to flip them over to the mount or into an arm bar.
If someone in your guard tries to hit your face, just flex your legs out. Iāve used it, and it works just fine. Most anyone ever got in on me was a single hit, and thatās because I was being stupid.
Why am I telling you this? I thought you were the groundfighting mastah?[/QUOTE]
Lots of advanced grapplers use an open guard. Just sayingā¦
[QUOTE=MasterKiller;1053805]Lots of advanced grapplers use an open guard. Just sayingā¦[/QUOTE]
I aināt fond of it.
Just sayinā.
I found this post of yours so āamazingā in its implications, that I had to answer it AGAIN!!! LOL!
[QUOTE=David Jamieson;1053673]kung fu schools, āthousandsā as they may be do not address grappling, wrestling, ground positions etc.[/quote]
Now you know about the thousands of styles of kung fu out there? Very interestingā¦listen most people in this forum donāt even have a half baked understanding of a single style, despite their self advertised ādecades of trainingā in most things, but genuine TCMAsā¦
I guess you are one of those rare genuisesā¦:rolleyes:
[QUOTE=David Jamieson;1053673]It doesnāt matter if some obscure dude in a littel village in shandung uses wrestling in his village tiger style.[/quote]
Yes, what would a Chinese kung fu master from the Shandung province know about the TCMAs, compared to one of the many of this forumās TCMA geniuses, David Jamiesonā¦
By the way, Mooyinmantis,who posts here seems to also teach (monkey)kung fu ground fightingā¦but yes what does he know about the TCMAs, in comparison to your knowledge of the thousands of styles and substyles of kung fu out there? LOL!
[QUOTE=David Jamieson;1053673]That is completely irelevant to the main question of groundwork/grappling/wrestling and how to deal with someone while in a guard, in a mount, with or under someone else side control etc etc.[/quote]
Perhaps you should ask the āobscure dudeā from Shandung about your enquiries?
[QUOTE=David Jamieson;1053673]those āthousandsā of cma styles do not address that in a big way and it is necessary.[/quote]
I just keep forgetting about your vast and detailed knowledge of the thousands of TCMA styles, in a forum where most peopleās kung fu knowledge of a single styles falls even below the mediocreā¦I wonder if there are more genuises like you in Canadaā¦
[QUOTE=David Jamieson;1053673]shuai chiao is the closest you come to any sort of standing grapples that lead to throws and there is no groundwork for the most part.[/quote]
Maybe you are right, or maybe you are wrong, but we are not just discussing Shuai chiaoā¦
[QUOTE=David Jamieson;1053673]chin na address grabs, seizes and holds but doesnāt address someone in the mount smashing their elbows down on your face.[/quote]
It may or it may not, but most probably it will address you not ending there in the first place, even when you are already on the ground.
[QUOTE=David Jamieson;1053673]to be fair, Muay Thai doesnāt address ground work and neither does Karate in any form, boxing, kickboxing, tae kwon do, bagua, taichi, xingyi, etc. Kung Fu isnāt the only one that doesnāt deal with wrestling, grappling it has to be added in or onto a style in order to address it.[/quote]
Christ, I fell off my chair reading that. Not only do you have detailed knowledge of the thousands of TCMA styles, but you are also well versed in karate (all styles, I assume), TKD, and MTā¦:rolleyes:
[QUOTE=David Jamieson;1053673]The very fact that a person would rail against this simple truth is indicative that perhaps they donāt know what they are talking about and maybe should give consideration to those who do recognize the leaks.[/quote]
Well, so far your version of the āsimple truthā or is it universal truth, that is providing all the laughsā¦LOL!
Yes, Kung Fu is a lot of things, but it is not everything and doesnāt adequately address all forms of combat in and of itself no matter how many iterations there are of it.[/QUOTE]
And we all know that you have fully studied all the āmany iterationsā of kung fuā¦LOL!
[QUOTE=Hardwork108;1053812]
And we all know that you have fully studied all the āmany iterationsā of kung fuā¦LOL![/QUOTE]
the āmany iterationsā donāt exist you knucklehead.
there is only one karate. :rolleyes:
[QUOTE=Drake;1053781]Iām just wondering how he expects to get any sort of face strike when heās fighting someone who is in the guard. The whole vid is messed up.[/QUOTE]
Stacking someone on their neck and punching them in the face is one of the easiest ways to pass guard so long as you donāt do something dumb and get locked or swept. The problem is this dude has absolutely no clue on using his body weight for control. Soon as his leg posted heād have been on his back. He practically walked right into one of my favorite and most simplistic of sweepsā¦ughā¦supposed kung fu experts walking into first month BJJ basicsā¦
[QUOTE=Drake;1053793]If you kick to the face, you just broke your own guard. [/QUOTE]
Itās called open guard. It kind of works like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wg58TdNUM24
If someone in your guard tries to hit your face, just flex your legs out. Iāve used it, and it works just fine. Most anyone ever got in on me was a single hit, and thatās because I was being stupid.
Sounds like you need to work with people who are better at striking from inside the closed guard.
[QUOTE=David Jamieson;1053682]whatās your experience been? [/quote]
The Mainland Chinese of Wing Chun that I trained has ground fighting training as a part of its traditional curriculum (using WC concepts and principles)!
The video evidence of the āobscureā Chinese master, is still evidence, wether you want to see it or not.
Many years ago I read a letter posted from a Northern Mantis practitioner in I think the Kung fu Magazine, advising an American 7 Star Praying Mantis practitioner, who thought that Mantis did not contain ground fighting, to the contrary.
There is also a style of kung fu referred to as āDog Fightingā that also addresses the ground scenario.
[QUOTE=David Jamieson;1053673]Mine has been somewhat robust and āallā ranges are not addressed, certainly not any wrestling at all. throws? sure, grabs and takedowns? sure. Ground work? ZERO.[/quote]
Well, as far as the GENUINE kung fu exposure of most of this forumās members are concerned, then ZERO is a relevant wordā¦
[QUOTE=David Jamieson;1053673]JJ is not exactly what I would call pure, although some of it is and does have stand up, JJ in GJJ or in context to sportive doesnāt employ the old ways and leans more towards trhe gracie and brazilian models fo what jj is. TO find genuine traditional japanese ju jitsu is no easy task. Many pretenders, just like tcma. lol[/quote]
Again, I believe that Brazilian JJ, is referred to as BJJ or GJJ, while the Japanese one is referred to as JJ or JJJ. So if you say that JJ is only about ground fighting, then you are wrong.
[QUOTE=David Jamieson;1053673]You will find that the system has been modified from Judo. the stand up part is to get position to launch the takedown, after that, itās about control and submission.[/quote]
Maybe yes, maybe no. That is why I would like a person who actually practices it to come and clarify this point. Is there any stand up striking in BJJ or no???
[QUOTE=David Jamieson;1053673]Do you study Okinawan Karate?[/quote]
No I have not. Have you studied every style and lineage of kung fu, to completions?
And have you studied all styles and all lineages of Okinawan karate to completion?
[QUOTE=David Jamieson;1053673]I did for years, [/quote]
The world is full of peole who have āstudiedā Karate and Kung Fu, and many of them post cluelessly in this very forumā¦
[QUOTE=David Jamieson;1053673]and I am not wrong, you are uninformed if you think there is wrestling and grappling in these arts. there is not, not any.[/quote]
I am very well informed. You need to re-assess your āexperienceā in Okinawan Karate, as well as, Chinese Kung fu, I might add.
By the way, here is a link to a TRADITIONAL Goju Ryu school in London, run by 6th Dan Sensei, Gavin Mulholland. I have been to their dojo and have seen them sparring stand up, and then taking it down to the ground for rolls and submissions. at the time of my visit, this dojo was linked to a traditional karate organization HQ-ed in Okinawa. I donāt know if they are still part of that organization. Read the first paragraph. If you are in doubt then feel free to email the sensei, for confirmation of what I just said!
http://www.goju-karate.co.uk/Goju-Ryu.html
[QUOTE=David Jamieson;1053673]Kyokushin kai was mas oyamas style. He was formerly shotokan and while mas may have dabbled in taking down bulls, Kyokushin doesnāt deal with wrestling or grappling.[/quote]
Oyama was formerly Goju ryu. His Shotokan past has been debated by some. In the book, āThis is Karateā, written by Mas. Oyama, and not me, on page 267 you see the beginning of chapter 15, headed, "Lying-doun (down?) Techniques. The whole of this chapter is about what to do when you are taken down. Which means, Ground Fighting.
Well, I truely and honestly would not know. However, if I was searching for groundfighting in MT, then I would look at their older traditional, none sport versions and lineages, or perhaps I should listen to you, as you seem to have studied them allā¦:rolleyes:
So, I was right, some clubs do train the whole packageā¦
Well, I am amazed that you act like a, know it all, about all of the TCMA styles under the sun, not to mention the Karate and MT styles, as well, and then you post the above quote.
IMHO, the above quote should be made into a sticky for all the āwarriorsā who post in this forum, while cluelessly generalizing about the TCMAs, pretending to have knowledge that they have no hope in h&ll of having.
Well, I have never claimed to be anything but a kung fu student, if you think I have then please indicate whereā¦
[QUOTE=David Jamieson;1053820]the āmany iterationsā donāt exist you knucklehead.
there is only one karate. :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]
Correction, there is only one IDEA of karate, but there are many stylesā¦