Constructing a purely TCMA MMA? Can it be done?

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
21

[QUOTE=Hardwork108;1053588]Yes, the TCMAs do address the ground scenario, wether they do so by rolling around in the ground for an hour and half, is another story.

People have to remember, and I have stated this before, that wrestling arts developed in China even before the kung fu styles. It is ignorant to assume that the thousands of kung fu styles that evolved during hundreds of years, somehow “forgot” to address the ground scenario, just because someone living in some Shmucksville, has not seen it.

Like Ten Tigers said, and I have stated it before, just because you have not been exposed to it, it does not mean that it does not exist. So, it is time for some of the none-TCMA posters, and their pseudo kung fu colleagues, to get off their high (and uniformed) horses, and do some serious research into the TCMAs, by ASKING questions and not making ignorant statements.

Please remeber that this is a TCMA forum, and this is where people like you are supposed to come and learn about the various methodologies and aspects. This forum is NOT for you to come and “teach” us modern MMA. Thank you![/QUOTE]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3cvotwO0Kwo

22

[QUOTE=goju;1053592]Here we go again:eek:

[/QUOTE]

:eek:

Hey, I made a fair statement!

It is tiresome to see one kung fu clueless MMA-ist, after another, post generalized statements about thousands of TCMA styles, and hundreds, if not thousands of years of evolution, based solely on what they HAVE NOT seen inbetween their BJJ and kickboxing classes!!!

23

[QUOTE=Hardwork108;1053588]Yes, the TCMAs do address the ground scenario, wether they do so by rolling around in the ground for an hour and half, is another story.

People have to remember, and I have stated this before, that wrestling arts developed in China even before the kung fu styles. It is ignorant to assume that the thousands of kung fu styles that evolved during hundreds of years, somehow “forgot” to address the ground scenario, just because someone living in some Shmucksville, has not seen it.

Like Ten Tigers said, and I have stated it before, just because you have not been exposed to it, it does not mean that it does not exist. So, it is time for some of the none-TCMA posters, and their pseudo kung fu colleagues, to get off their high (and uniformed) horses, and do some serious research into the TCMAs, by ASKING questions and not making ignorant statements.

Please remeber that this is a TCMA forum, and this is where people like you are supposed to come and learn about the various methodologies and aspects. This forum is NOT for you to come and “teach” us modern MMA. Thank you![/QUOTE]

Yet, the Chinese styles you have experience in have no ground fighting.

“Ground fighting” is not as simple as armbarring someone, or kicking a standing opponent from the ground, or even locking someone and taking them down.

The main point of ground fighting is holding positions and training the transitions into those positions so that you can control your opponent and/or prevent him from controlling you.

If it exists out there in the Chinese ether somewhere, but it such a close-guarded secret that no one knows about it except in-door disciples, it might as well not even exist because it does nothing to further the development of Chinese arts as a whole.

I mean, if it’s so obvious to someone like you, show me 3 examples of pure Chinese ground fighting.

24

Hey, I made a fair statement!

It is tiresome to see one kung fu clueless MMA-ist, after another, post generalized statements about thousands of TCMA styles, and hundreds, if not thousands of years of evolution, based solely on what they HAVE NOT seen inbetween their BJJ and kickboxing classes!!![/QUOTE]

Wasn’t directed soley at you .It was at all the people who will inevitably turn this into a dozen page arguement.:smiley:

25

It is very possible… especially if you integrate into your training some Shuai Jiao, San Shao, Chi Na, Chi Na Fa; in addition to cross training in Hung Ga, Choy Lay Fut, Wing Chun, Shaolin, Bak Mei, Eagle Claw, White Crane, TigerCrane to improve stricking, closing the gap, and power generation:)

26

i think a big question is, if its possible to do at a truly competative level, then out of all the hundreds of thousands of cma practitioners there are no soley cma pro fighters in the ranks? so are cma guys just weak or has no one actually done this? and if thats the case, how do you know it would work?

i want to see a pro fight from a fighter who says ‘i am 100% cma’

i dont think anyone can show me that vid. im not saying it can or cannot be done, im saying, where is evidence that it HAS been done. we are talking mma, a sport, which requires competing to be a MMA fighter.

27

[QUOTE=Lucas;1053608]
i want to see a pro fight from a fighter who says ‘i am 100% cma’

i dont think anyone can show me that vid. im not saying it can or cannot be done, im saying, where is evidence that it HAS been done. we are talking mma, a sport, which requires competing to be a MMA fighter.[/QUOTE]

I think Sean Obasi claims he’s 100% Wing Chun.

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ill youtube him when i get home. hows his ground game?

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[QUOTE=Lucas;1053614]ill youtube him when i get home. hows his ground game?[/QUOTE]

Nevermind. He cross-trains, too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8ONFwANRog

30

its kind of a supply and demand issue imo, the demand is a strong ground game to be competative at the pro level, the supply, generally, is bjj in mass.

anyone know if satoshi ishii has fought pro yet>?

31

No TCMA deals with ground work to the extend of Judo, much less BJJ or submission grappling.
It’s just not there to the degree it is in those sports.

32

oh i forgot im stupid satoshi has already fought i believe.

http://kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=52352&highlight=satoshi+ishii

33

mma as a professional competitive sport has zero single art practitioners.

there is no single art that covers all the ranges anywhere.

jj, bjj etc do not cover stand up

karate, cma, boxing, MT do not cover ground

clinch is covered differently and takes on a different tack in mma than in boxing or even in kickboxing, it has to take into consideration that possibility that the next thing could be a kick and knee or a takedown or a throw.

competitive mma will eventually develop into a style where by all those ranges will be trained as a whole package instead of guys going from one club to another to get rounded out for it.

integrated mma training methodology is the next step and i think cma has a lot to offer it.

34

hmmm… Bruce lee;-)

Here are some others:
Jason Delucia, Felix Mitchell, Cung Le, Cummo, Tom Valente, Keith Maza

I like this video…http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4WrYhwXp148&search=UFC%20

old kung fu book that shows groundwork and takedowns:
http://venus.secureguards.com/~aikidog-/aikicenter/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=264&sid=e0588a5f062354f37ec3dbef34f3bea9

35

I know cung le is not full cma. his cma training is in viet kungfu from his younger years, but he is most certainly mma from various arts.

36

cung also knows tkd as well

37

[QUOTE=pateticorecords;1053636]hmmm… Bruce lee;-)[/quote] The most notable CMA guy to emphasize the need to crosstrain? :rolleyes:

Here are some others:
Jason Delucia, Felix Mitchell, Cung Le, Cummo, Tom Valente, Keith Maza
You do realize Delucia got beaten silly by Royce Gracie and immediately started crosstraining, right?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VN6PvPCrStI

And Cung Le and Luke Cummo certainly crosstrain.

38

lucia cross trains as well doesnt he? i believe he knows aikido too and of course can conjure ghosts to attack you through a voodp ritual like he did with bas rutten lol

39

[QUOTE=MasterKiller;1053599]Yet, the Chinese styles you have experience in have no ground fighting.[/quote]
First you guys make assumptions about thousands of TCMA, and their thousand year old histories, while not having completed a genuine curriculum of even one of those styles. Now, you are assuming what I have experience in does have or does not have! LOL.

Let me tell you this, even if what you say were the case, then I would not be pompous enough to say, “I haven’t seen it, therefore it does not exist”…

As the case is, the Mainland Chinese Wing Chun lineage that I studied, introduced the ground fighting in the latter stages of Chun Kiu, when the student had already gained potent skill in stand up striking and Chin-na.

There is a Tiger style of kung fu that has ground fighting. There is at least on lineage of Northern Praying Mantis, that teaches ground fighting as a part of their traditional curriculum. I believe that their kwoon is in Singapoore, if memory serves me correctly.

[QUOTE=MasterKiller;1053599]“Ground fighting” is not as simple as armbarring someone, or kicking a standing opponent from the ground, or even locking someone and taking them down. [/quote]
I did not say that it was.

[QUOTE=MasterKiller;1053599]The main point of ground fighting is holding positions and training the transitions into those positions so that you can control your opponent and/or prevent him from controlling you.[/quote]

Hey, couldn’t the more or less same thing be said about stand up fighting?

[QUOTE=MasterKiller;1053599]If it exists out there in the Chinese ether somewhere, but it such a close-guarded secret that no one knows about it except in-door disciples, it might as well not even exist because it does nothing to further the development of Chinese arts as a whole.[/quote]
Again, no one said anything about “indoor disciples”. The fact is that over 95% of TCMA schools teach utter cr@p, and people like you base your comments on experiences gained in such schools. I am merely saying that you lot are wrong!

I am spending precious time on posting to you guys, because I agree that it is not so obvious, even if logically, it would not be too difficult to come to the conclusion that fightings systems developed in a country with thousands of years of history, and violence, where wrestling arts had existed before and parallel with kung fu, then some of these arts would have ground fighting,while others would address the ground fighting scenario in their own manner.

Anyway, here are a few to give you an indication:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f20SLgNb9Ds

Shaolin Grappling?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJR5Jb1oQPY&feature=related

This one claims to be tai chi, but I am not very familiar with tai chi, so you decide for yourself.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MKwYmiGt7po&feature=related

Finally, even though I have given you some Youtube examples, Youtube is not beginning and the end of kung fu. There are many kung fu methodologies that are not even referred to in books and other written literature, even if you are lucky enough to read ones written by actual masters. That is the way things are in the TCMA world, and IMHO, quite rightly so.

The previous paragraph was for your information, but when it comes to TCMA’s take on ground fighting, then there is nothing secret about it. The problem is that there a very extremely few schools that teach a given kung fu style the way it was designed to be taught and covering all of its levels. Once you accept this fact then you will be “enlightened”…

40

[QUOTE=pateticorecords;1053606]It is very possible… especially if you integrate into your training some Shuai Jiao, San Shao, Chi Na, Chi Na Fa; in addition to cross training in Hung Ga, Choy Lay Fut, Wing Chun, Shaolin, Bak Mei, Eagle Claw, White Crane, TigerCrane to improve stricking, closing the gap, and power generation:)[/QUOTE]

All of the TCMA styles that you have quoted there will teach you potent Chi-na, if you train them in a genuine kwoon and under the guidance of an authentic kung fu sifu.