Chum Kil is made up about 50% of bong sau

[Graham_H]

[QUOTE=YungChun;1055533]Even in your sub-method breaking structure with the punch is core.. Kevin knows that..because it’s what you are depending on—controlling with your strikes..

Bringing Kevin into it eh??? Nice…

The same thing applies to all the tools and I suspect Keven knows that as well.. Regardless of how often you choose to or need to use Bong…

Kevin this, Kevin that:rolleyes:…unlike you lot myself and Kevin and everybody else in our lineage agree with each other, share and understand each others thinking. I think thats a good thing.

If you really have no idea how Bong can break structure then you never learned Bong..

Ive learned many different Bong Sau sweetheart!!! The ONE I use now works best.

Are you telling me your Bong has no forward energy?

Are you telling yours has???

Because if it doesn’t it won’t/can’t work and isn’t even a Bong.. The form shows you the same action with double Tan’s then double Bong’s with forward stepping, in SLT Bong moves out down the line just like Tan…with forward intent..

I could prove you wrong in an instant but argue with you for a year on here my friend!!!

Again even in your sub-method when you use Bong to clear the line you should be using forward energy… And it is this combination of the Bong action with this energy that clears the line and breaks their structure..

If my “sub-method” is somehow lower than yours then I’m glad

If that’s not enough all this BS you are handing out about ‘a stupid way to use Chun’ is exactly how WSL’s top students are ‘using it’ and how WSL himself taught it----it’s all on YouTube.. So when you bash you are bashing your own lineage as well..

Another You-Tube junkie…Can you please tell me when you had some hands on experience with PB or his students and I’ll stop laughing at that comment.

Or has Bayer created his own art?

If he has then I commend him because it is far more effective and makes more sense then ANY OTHER I have come across in the UK, Europe and Hong Kong. Can’t speak for the US. Maybe you are all robots

Maybe we should ask him…to take a look-see here..

E-mail him personally Jim…he will respond in the same way he did last time I was accused of being arrogant on the internet…like this…:D:D:D:p:p;)

Love you

GH

[Graham_H]

[QUOTE=YungChun;1055533]

Because if it doesn’t it won’t/can’t work and isn’t even a Bong.. The form shows you the same action with double Tan’s then double Bong’s with forward stepping, in SLT Bong moves out down the line just like Tan…with forward intent..

.[/QUOTE]

In SLT your fist is underneath the shoulder before. How else can you make Bong Sau… by making your arm go forward isnt it or am I wrong??? Bong Sau in SLT isn’t a fighting application in my lineage…you knew that too right?

The stepping Bong Sau’s in CK aren’t fighting applications either but you knew that too. They are for teaching the body how to behave. The actions come alive through Chi Sau and can, if needed, be used in many ways. The worrying thing is that you lot need one application for each move in the forms then you put it in a syllabus and do gradings. This defeats the whole object of a Martial Skill that relies on spontaneous reaction and not pre rehearsed set techniques.

Its purely a conceptual system or have I been mind f***ed by aliens over here??? lmao

Ding Ding!!!

GH

[t_niehoff]

[QUOTE=Graham H;1055629]
Its purely a conceptual system or have I been mind f***ed by aliens over here??? lmao

Ding Ding!!!

GH[/QUOTE]

You have been mind-f#cked.

WCK is not a “conceptual system”, no more than boxing or wrestling are conceptual “systems”. It is only a “conceptual system” for theoretical nonfighters.

[Graham_H]

[QUOTE=t_niehoff;1055653]You have been mind-f#cked.

It is only a “conceptual system” for theoretical nonfighters.[/QUOTE]

If I directed you to a Boxing forum would you tell the guys there that they are talking nonsense when they discuss the technicalities of training and sparring. Will you tell them that they should go and spar people from MA or MMA to prove their worth Terence??? If a local lad wins the local Boxing titles does it mean he is equally handy in a streetfight??? No it doesn’t!!!

Boxers spar boxers yet its not ok for VT to spar VT??? Amusing stuff yet again Terence.

Most WCK people are theoretical non fighters. There are loads of them on here.

If I am one then I’m theoretically happy…

GH

[t_niehoff]

[QUOTE=Graham H;1055658]If I directed you to a Boxing forum would you tell the guys there that they are talking nonsense when they discuss the technicalities of training and sparring.
[/QUOTE]

No, because they unlike you, are doing realistic training and sparring.

They won’t talk about “conceptual systems”. That is the domain of theoretical fighters like Bayer.

Will you tell them that they should go and spar people from MA or MMA to prove their worth Terence??? If a local lad wins the local Boxing titles does it mean he is equally handy in a streetfight??? No it doesn’t!!!

Boxing uses realistic training/sparring and so develops realistic fighting skill. Those skills will work in any realistic situation, ring, cage or street. Unrealistic training/sparring – the stuff you do – doesn’t develop realistic skills but an unrealistic “idea” of fighting. I tell guys like you who haven’t a clue to train with people, like boxers or MMA or MT fighters, who have genuine skills so that you can see for yourself how poor your skills are.

Boxers spar boxers yet its not ok for VT to spar VT??? Amusing stuff yet again Terence.

Yes, and tai ji people spar tai ji people, and aikido people spar aikido people, and all kinds of other unskilled people spar with their classmates – and what does that prove? Do you think that unrealistic sparring with poorly skilled people will develop good fighting skills?

If you actually have fighting skills, shouldn’t you be able to handle someone from another art, a boxer or MT fighter? If whitebelt level MMA students could consistently beat Bayer, what would that tell you?

Most WCK people are theoretical non fighters. There are loads of them on here.

If I am one then I’m theoretically happy…

GH

We finally agree on something.

[YungChun]

[QUOTE=Graham H;1055619]

Bringing Kevin into it eh??? Nice…

Kevin this, Kevin that:rolleyes:…unlike you lot myself and Kevin and everybody else in our lineage agree with each other, share and understand each others thinking. I think thats a good thing.

Ive learned many different Bong Sau sweetheart!!! The ONE I use now works best.

Are you telling yours has???

I could prove you wrong in an instant but argue with you for a year on here my friend!!!

If my “sub-method” is somehow lower than yours then I’m glad

Another You-Tube junkie…Can you please tell me when you had some hands on experience with PB or his students and I’ll stop laughing at that comment.

If he has then I commend him because it is far more effective and makes more sense then ANY OTHER I have come across in the UK, Europe and Hong Kong. Can’t speak for the US. Maybe you are all robots

E-mail him personally Jim…he will respond in the same way he did last time I was accused of being arrogant on the internet…like this…:D:D:D:p:p;)

Love you

GH[/QUOTE]

You come off like an oxygen deprived juvenile delinquent on crack..

You do ChiSao with no forward energy? That’s great… What powers your bridges, wishful thinking?

You use buzzwords but have no understanding of what they mean.. Efficiency? You know what efficiency is in Chun? It’s when every move you make takes something away from the opponent.. And when your actions don’t take something away–e.g. break his structure (what Chun does) then there is no efficiency.. But I know words are wasted on you as is the case with all fanatics.

You can’t even rebut points made or discuss in a sensible manner.. It’s clear you’ve found your religion though congratulations.. What flavor cool aid do they have at your Chun church?

And if Bayer is actually supportive of the kind of posting you do (as you intimate) then clearly he’s the problem… But I would certainly reserve judgment on that until I see or hear it myself.

[Graham_H]

[QUOTE=YungChun;1055743]You come off like an oxygen deprived juvenile delinquent on crack..

You do ChiSao with no forward energy? That’s great… What powers your bridges, wishful thinking?

You use buzzwords but have no understanding of what they mean.. Efficiency? You know what efficiency is in Chun? It’s when every move you make takes something away from the opponent.. And when your actions don’t take something away–e.g. break his structure (what Chun does) then there is no efficiency.. But I know words are wasted on you as is the case with all fanatics.

You can’t even rebut points made or discuss in a sensible manner.. It’s clear you’ve found your religion though congratulations.. What flavor cool aid do they have at your Chun church?

And if Bayer is actually supportive of the kind of posting you do (as you intimate) then clearly he’s the problem… But I would certainly reserve judgment on that until I see or hear it myself.[/QUOTE]

Crack was so last year. I’m on Chrystal Meth now!!!

Who said I don’t do Chi Sau with no forward energy. Its called Lut Sau Jik Chung and I use it always. Not in Bong Sau however.

Powers my bridges??? What are you talking about??? I drive my car over along bridges to get over the water!!!

Chun Church??? You’re annoying me now.

Well when you’re ready to step up Jim…let me know!!! Until then stop trying to paint pretty pictures from bad drawings!!!

mwah

GH

[LoneTiger108]

[QUOTE=funsau;1054439]There is different various bong sau in chum kil. I would say about 50% of the chum kil form is bong sau. Do we understand all its application, usage and why so many bong sau?[/QUOTE]

I’ve tried making sense of some of the posts in this thread but simply find it quite strange that most are just talking to themselves. Nobody seems to agree on anything and from what I’m reading very few have even been taught Chum Kiu in the first place!

Now, be honest, who learnt the forms from a videotape or something? Nothing wrong in that if you’ve also had the guidance, but c’mon guys! I’m beginning to see more and more why it is so hard to unite different (& the same!) families as we can’t even understand bong sau in the same way?! I’m beginning to think there is a conspiracy on the forum, to basically rubbish WCK in ALL its forms as much as possible, whether you have trained in it or not!

For those who believe that there is only one bong sau, you are correct. For those who believe in many bong saus, you are correct.

Shifting, turning, receiving and breaking structure are also all correct, as they are for tan and fook too! I really don’t know what all the pi$$ing matches are about.

If there was a time video clips could be an advantage it is now.

SOMEONE just show SOMETHING!! :D:D:eek::eek:

[Graham_H]

No, because they unlike you, are doing realistic training and sparring.

I do do realistic training and sparring…just like a boxer. How would you know I don’t???

Boxing uses realistic training/sparring and so develops realistic fighting skill. Those skills will work in any realistic situation, ring, cage or street. Unrealistic training/sparring – the stuff you do – doesn’t develop realistic skills but an unrealistic “idea” of fighting. I tell guys like you who haven’t a clue to train with people, like boxers or MMA or MT fighters, who have genuine skills so that you can see for yourself how poor your skills are.

I trained with Boxers for years…when I was boxing.

If you actually have fighting skills, shouldn’t you be able to handle someone from another art, a boxer or MT fighter? If whitebelt level MMA students could consistently beat Bayer, what would that tell you?

You think a white belt MMA student would beat Bayer??? How do you know these things Terence??? You must be a God or something. You’re special.

We finally agree on something.

Do we??? I don’t agree on anything you write…ever. Stop trying to compete with me over things you know nothing about.

You’re ideas on WCK are **** poor mate!!!

GH

[Graham_H]

[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;1055787] from what I’m reading very few have even been taught Chum Kiu in the first place!

[/QUOTE]

Thats the sort of pathetic response I’ve come to expect from you numb nuts!!! :rolleyes:

GH

[LoneTiger108]

[QUOTE=Graham H;1055789]Thats the sort of pathetic response I’ve come to expect from you numb nuts!!! :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]

Funny that! Sounds like you may fall into this ‘taught by video’ category then? And I thought what you’ve posted so far (other than the insults!) was quite reasonable. Considering the WSL guys I’ve met definitely know their second form inside and out. In fact, many moons ago it was a WSL guys that threw me all round a kitchen just to show me what he knew, and he (& me) was all of 6mths old! Made me reconsider what cr4p I had seen from others.

Still, once I learnt a bit more I could understand how he done that. Shame we have never had the chance to meet and trade again! WSL himself was very thorough in his own practise of this particular form I understand.

As far as PBVT or GLWSLVT, you seem to be on different journeys. As the GLWSLVT guys I’ve met are a bunch of decent characters. You however, I just don’t know…

[t_niehoff]

[QUOTE=Graham H;1055788]I do do realistic training and sparring…just like a boxer. How would you know I don’t???
[/QUOTE]

I KNOW that you’re not – if you were fighting, you wouldn’t be saying this nonsense.

And if Bayer and his guys were doing realistic sparring, he would be putting those videos up instead of what he does put up.

I trained with Boxers for years…when I was boxing.

No you didn’t. You posted about how boxers’ didn’t really have a good answer to the hook, remember? Anyone who has trained boxing would know better.

You think a white belt MMA student would beat Bayer??? How do you know these things Terence??? You must be a God or something. You’re special.

No, it’s rather simple: if you are not already doing it, you won’t be able to do it. That’s a lead pipe truth. Is Bayer (or you) sparring against white belt level MMA fighters? No. So he won’t be able to handle them.

[Graham_H]

[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;1055795] You however, I just don’t know… [/QUOTE]

Exactly!!! You just don’t know.

GH

[Graham_H]

I KNOW that you’re not – if you were fighting, you wouldn’t be saying this nonsense.

You know F**k all…as usual. :rolleyes:

And if Bayer and his guys were doing realistic sparring, he would be putting those videos up instead of what he does put up.

There are no videos of the sparring but I can assure you the sparring is for real.

No you didn’t. You posted about how boxers’ didn’t really have a good answer to the hook, remember? Anyone who has trained boxing would know better.

So now you are trying to tell me I never boxed??? :D:rolleyes:

No, it’s rather simple: if you are not already doing it, you won’t be able to do it. That’s a lead pipe truth. Is Bayer (or you) sparring against white belt level MMA fighters? No. So he won’t be able to handle them.

Complete and utter nonsense…as usual.

It funny that you keep referring to white belt MMA fighters to make a point. It kind of clouds the WCK BS that you keep writing!!!

How many fingers am I holding up Terence???

GH

[Graham_H]

[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;1055795]

As far as PBVT or GLWSLVT, you seem to be on different journeys. :[/QUOTE]

Thats a good thing!!!

GH

[t_niehoff]

[QUOTE=Graham H;1055829]You know F**k all…as usual. :rolleyes:

There are no videos of the sparring but I can assure you the sparring is for real.
[/QUOTE]

If you did do realistic sparring you wouldn’t be saying the nonsense you do.

Realistic sparring – regardless of your art – “looks” like MMA.

This is realistic WCK sparring: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f97513HQoEk

It’s NOT good WCK, but it shows you what you will face when you realistically spar (and fight from the inside).

So now you are trying to tell me I never boxed??? :D:rolleyes:

If you “boxed” you certainly didn’t get decent training, nor does it sound like you learned very much about boxing.

Complete and utter nonsense…as usual.

It funny that you keep referring to white belt MMA fighters to make a point. It kind of clouds the WCK BS that you keep writing!!!

Of course you don’t want to believe that if you are not already doing it you won’t be able to do it – for the simple reason that none of your group is doing it. Theoretical nonfighters, the fantasy fu guys, etc. all believe as you do.

White belt level MMA fighters, the guys you see in the beginning MMA classes, will fight like the clip above – they will try to pound your ass, take you down, tie you up, do whatever it takes to beat you. And that’s because they face that constantly in their training (sparring). As I said, if you aren’t already doing it, you won’t be able to do it. They are already doing it – realistic sparring.

But, of course, you and Bayer could do it if you wanted to – it’s just that you’ve just never done it.

[Graham_H]

If I wanted to do MMA Terence I would do MMA. I don’t!!! There are many good clubs local to me and I have friends that are doing well on the UK circuit. I’m just not interested.

I only have enough time for one system and there is enough work to do in VT without getting involved in other things. I don’t beleive in cross training either.

I’m out of this thread now. Its boring. Think of something else we can clash about!! :D:D:D:D:D

GH

[t_niehoff]

[QUOTE=Graham H;1055884]If I wanted to do MMA Terence I would do MMA. I don’t!!! There are many good clubs local to me and I have friends that are doing well on the UK circuit. I’m just not interested.

I only have enough time for one system and there is enough work to do in VT without getting involved in other things. I don’t beleive in cross training either.

I’m out of this thread now. Its boring. Think of something else we can clash about!! :D:D:D:D:D

GH[/QUOTE]

It has nothing to do with “wanting to do MMA” – the point is that if you are not already doing it-- whatever it is-- you won’t be able to do it. If you want to develop competent fighting skills, you will NEED to cross-train. The chances are you will not be attacked only by other Bayer students (who are programmed to move in certain, specific ways).

For example, if you are not already dealing with competent people shooting in and trying to take you down, you won’t be able to deal with it. If you think so, then you are just fantasizing. Who can deal with competent shooters? People who are already dealing with them. And this extends to all “ranges” of fighting. Who can deal with competent ground fighters? People who are ALREADY dealing with competent groundfighters in their training (sparring). And so on.

[Phil_Redmond]

[QUOTE=Graham H;1055609]Bashing and arrogance??? He does teach me the bashing bit. The arrogance I purchased myself… Thanks for the compliment.

BTW Phil…you were very quick to dismiss what I wrote which assumes that you think your ideas are better so we both suffer from the same affliction I guess.

In fact everybody on here generally dismisses each others ideas on a day to day basis. We are all guilty. I find it amusing.

GH[/QUOTE]
Where in my post did I dismiss what you typed? Disagreeing is not dismissing.

[Graham_H]

[QUOTE=Phil Redmond;1056021]Where in my post did I dismiss what you typed? Disagreeing is not dismissing.[/QUOTE]

Shut up Terence!!!

Sorry Phil…my bad…disagreeing is part of WCK and indeed part of life. ;)

GH