Hi All,
Teaching my students the other day and we started discussing the Dummy form and the large number of Bong Sau’s…
The dummy version I teach (close to Ip Chun version) has losts of bongs and I used to hear that Bong Sau was an emergency technique and should rarely be seem!
For me I take the majority of the Bongs in the dummy as contacts that could be replaced with many other shapes like tan, pak or jam.
Any opiniions?
Paul
www.moifa.co.uk
a lot of working from inside to outside i suspect
Hi Paul,
[QUOTE=Paul T England;819863]Hi All,
Teaching my students the other day and we started discussing the Dummy form and the large number of Bong Sau’s…
The dummy version I teach (close to Ip Chun version) has losts of bongs and I used to hear that Bong Sau was an emergency technique and should rarely be seem!
For me I take the majority of the Bongs in the dummy as contacts that could be replaced with many other shapes like tan, pak or jam.
Any opiniions?
Paul
www.moifa.co.uk[/QUOTE]
I personally think bong works best in an emergency sit. and at really close quarters.
I have a hard time using it the way you usually see it depicted with your hands far away from the body. I would rather use something else if my hands are that far away.
Again, it’s just my opinion, but it is effective when your close to someone, and they try to grab you when your hands down at your side.
J
Close off facing, to fold them over.. Change lines, going with his force, conversion to elbow.. Got to have energy present, power applied/received to make it work. I also have used it when the attack was unexpected, it’s faster to get the elbow up, than the hand when the arm is down. Otherwise the bong is not my preferred tool for intercepting..
Someone please tell me, why people teach wing chun when they do not understand the system?
Regards
Alan
[QUOTE=Alan Orr;819924]Someone please tell me, why people teach wing chun when they do not understand the system?
Regards
Alan[/QUOTE]
By all means… Teach us bong…
I’m sure there is more than one valid use.. Folks need to use it as it works or not for them in application..
I don’t always agree with other folk’s chi sao and use of tools therein. To each his own..
bongs are all the same on dummy and the system …just trained on the low arm for jing [displacement force] slap !! to remove laterally any arm that has xed ‘spatialy’ your line to the target..in other words it doesnt need contact [wrong chisao thinking] to ballisticly remove an arm as we attack…remember we are attacking never suddenly recieveng a guys energy to borrow bs…thats why the chisao has your tan [ 1/2 hit] bridged by a fook..simply a role for each to develop the correct lateral displacement of the bong as it raises the elbow and X 's the centerline ..then back to elbow in striking…its not a fighting application to attack with a series of arm blocks ,as some see it …
In Chum kil we marry the vu sao to the bong becasue itis the way to recover a bridged attacking arm..and immediatley strike [ not lop] from the vusao as the bong sao elbow drops ..the action /sequence is tutsao…simply to attack without stopping for an arm over ours…
The pole teaches this ballistic displacment force , so powerful and shocking …a lop sao is only required [as bilgee] if the bong didnt work as it was supposed to…
you empower your bong to be a force unto itself not a turning away , passive chi-sao misinterpretation …that doesnt work against unwilling fighters …
simply 'jamming ’ with it as so many teach is making it not function as it was designed, the ‘jam’ is lan sao/fence.
double low bongs in the last section of chum kilsimply teach us that we can attack either lkeg leading from a side and use either bong…we do both low to develop inward ‘slapping’ left to right & vice versa and not damage our necks by constant upper lat contractions on our necks…
the bong doesnt go up and down in chi-sao …it goes so the fingers , once in a raised position, point to your parnters bicep…his fook is on line controlling the force at his elbow, if he applies force at his wrist it will be taken offline , naturally , with the motion of bong sao , …inan unthinking attack IF an arm bridges ours we regaing the attack with the rear vusao/strike as the bong opens the line right to left or vice versa…not for sticking …once the arm is moved off the line bong isnt needed becasue the rear vu/strike takes up the line transfer protocol of the system…seamlessly maintaining an unbroken center while we keep blitizing the guy…not many know this method…
the redundancy factor of chi-sao is simple, we never [ shouldnt ;)] attack with 2 equally extnded arms ..rather one leading strike and a rear hand/strike..only turning to pratner displacement line clearing protocol if an obstruction is met…
infront, pak …contact under , jut…arm over our attack line bong vu/strike,…bong doesnt wok or the jut feels an impenetrable arm position , lop on the axis of the guys body , maintain attack again…
all done in the blink of an eye 
all bongs are the same just the levels have changed to allow certain things …
[QUOTE=k gledhill;819930]bongs are all the same on dummy and the system …just trained on the low arm for jing [displacement force] slap !! to remove laterally any arm that has xed ‘spatialy’ your line to the target..in other words it doesnt need contact [wrong chisao thinking] to ballisticly remove an arm as we attack..[/QUOTE]
You mean it doesn’t need pre-contact I assume?
I see bong mainly as a way to let force go and then help it leave the line, (elbow as third limb) close their facing, jam them, take the flank more often but not always and help convert back to offense–retaking the line–filing space.
I also see it as part of a WCK flinch response..
And forward energy is what powers bong..
And of course there are three different bongs in the system, which have different apps.
[QUOTE=Alan Orr;819924]Someone please tell me, why people teach wing chun when they do not understand the system?
Regards
Alan[/QUOTE]
Maybe it’s been this way for so long that people just generally do not notice anymore Alan. How do you judge peoples understanding?
IMO ‘Bong’ was referred to as a ‘search’ or ‘seeking’ arm, theoretically. And this is in relation to elbow positioning more than hand/palm position but both are equally important. With reference to the ‘Dummy’ training, it may help if its clear what we’re talking of here, 108/116 or set drills or something else?
“I used to hear that Bong Sau was an emergency technique and should rarely be seem!” (seen?)
I think what Paul is referring to here is an old saying the ‘Bong Sau never stays still’, which implies that the whole body moves during Bong Sau, which also relates to another comment on ‘inside to outside’ drills.
Strange post though by you Alan, all the same. Directed at anyone in particular?
[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;819935]Maybe it’s been this way for so long that people just generally do not notice anymore Alan. How do you judge peoples understanding?
IMO ‘Bong’ was referred to as a ‘search’ or ‘seeking’ arm, theoretically. And this is in relation to elbow positioning more than hand/palm position but both are equally important. With reference to the ‘Dummy’ training, it may help if its clear what we’re talking of here, 108/116 or set drills or something else?
“I used to hear that Bong Sau was an emergency technique and should rarely be seem!” (seen?)
I think what Paul is referring to here is an old saying the ‘Bong Sau never stays still’, which implies that the whole body moves during Bong Sau, which also relates to another comment on ‘inside to outside’ drills.
Strange post though by you Alan, all the same. Directed at anyone in particular?[/QUOTE]
I judge peoples understanding from what I see, feel and hear. On this forum I am tried of hearing such a lack of anything.
emergency technique?? Why would we use it all the time in Chi Sao if that was the case? It is a close range extension of our body structure. You should be able to use your bong to feel, press, stick, flow in close range. Without the body control behind bong it is dead. It is a bridge that can be crossed my me but not my opponent. It is a conductor of force via the centre of the body. The dummy teaches flow in close range not applications …Much more…
Regards
Alan
[QUOTE=Alan Orr;819947]I judge peoples understanding from what I see, feel and hear. On this forum I am tried of hearing such a lack of anything.
emergency technique?? Why would we use it all the time in Chi Sao if that was the case? It is a close range extension of our body structure. You should be able to use your bong to feel, press, stick, flow in close range. Without the body control behind bong it is dead. It is a bridge that can be crossed my me but not my opponent. It is a conductor of force via the centre of the body. The dummy teaches flow in close range not applications …Much more..[/QUOTE]
I think that was clearly expressed..
Additionally, in modern combatives, you have something called a flinch response, a primal reaction to a sudden threat. In my personal experience, when folks have tried to sucker punch me I found that my elbow often came up in a bong as a flinch.. Seems logical my body chose this move because the elbow does come up fastest to cover IME.. No question in my mind bong can also serve this function since it did.
Also IMO anything you do real-time is an application…
[QUOTE=YungChun;819948]I think that was clearly expressed..
Additionally, in modern combatives, you have something called a flinch response, a primal reaction to a sudden threat. In my personal experience, when folks have tried to sucker punch me I found that my elbow often came up in a bong as a flinch.. Seems logical my body chose this move because the elbow does come up fastest to cover IME.. No question in my mind bong can also serve this function since it did.
Also IMO anything you do real-time is an application…[/QUOTE]
David Peterson talks about this exact usage in his Chum Kiu DVD, it is one of the 3 usages of Bong for the WSL line. If the hands are down by your side, your elbow is the closest, and most useful tool to use to avoid a direct hit from someone sucker punching you. In the DVD he talks about the english translation of Bong from chinese, and in essence it means “upper arm”, not wing arm as some follow.
James
Hi Jim
[QUOTE=YungChun;819948]I think that was clearly expressed..
Additionally, in modern combatives, you have something called a flinch response, a primal reaction to a sudden threat. In my personal experience, when folks have tried to sucker punch me I found that my elbow often came up in a bong as a flinch.. Seems logical my body chose this move because the elbow does come up fastest to cover IME.. No question in my mind bong can also serve this function since it did.
Also IMO anything you do real-time is an application…[/QUOTE]
Yes, anything in real time is an application but not alway the best one.
A sucker punch is just that, therefore if its done well you will get hit. I don’t like the flinch response, I train martial arts to train my response to the best reaction and understanding. Modern combatives are good for people how don’t train that much. The best is Tim Larkin TFT for that, as they use basic body methods and an understanding of primal reaction. But, it is limited as it is all based on the guy not countering not on something going wrong. To me martial arts training is about taking control of the opponent not reacting to them, thats to late.
Lifting the bong is the manner talk about is bad body structure, it will have no power and if the opponent is throwing punches rather that one punch then you will have problems. Also you lift you arm like that and your body is open. Bong should be after you have bridge contact to have good effect.
Regards
Alan
The best is Tim Larkin TFT for that, as they use basic body…
Wasn’t Tim part of SCARS ?
With Jerry Peterson ?
Bong sao can be a very useful defensive/redirective maneuver against parallel (matched/mirrored lead) straight stiff lead punches (not jabs) when you’re on the outside of his arm - or even against a rear cross when not in matched/mirrored leads) - and an extended bong/wu into lop and hit or lop/gum and hit can also be used from the parallel position as an aggressive attack move against the guy with his hands held back - at a moment when he’s not throwing punches (if you’re close enough)…
and there are indeed many transitions that can come from bong sao.
As long as ALL OF THE ABOVE are done while moving into the opponent’s space - albeit at a slight angle and not exactly head on.
If you’re not doing that - you’re asking for trouble by using bong sao. It’s a move that needs pressure, angle, and immediate transition to something else.
[QUOTE=sihing;819954]David Peterson talks about this exact usage in his Chum Kiu DVD, it is one of the 3 usages of Bong for the WSL line. If the hands are down by your side, your elbow is the closest, and most useful tool to use to avoid a direct hit from someone sucker punching you. In the DVD he talks about the english translation of Bong from chinese, and in essence it means “upper arm”, not wing arm as some follow.
James[/QUOTE]
If your hands are down, you won’t have time to raise your elbow to cover a “sucker punch” (you still need to raise your hand to chin level). And, this is a very poor way to cover (as you will be knocked off balance).
“Bong”, according to my chinese-american dictionary, represents “side of flesh” and means shoulder or wing.
Bong means somethign quite different to me 
[QUOTE=Alan Orr;819985]I don’t like the flinch response, I train martial arts to train my response to the best reaction and understanding.[/QUOTE]
That’s right.
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;820005]Bong means somethign quite different to me :D[/QUOTE]
Ah, Cheech-and-Chong Fu!
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;820007]Ah, Cheech-and-Chong Fu![/QUOTE]
Relaxness like that, any taiji master would envy.