[QUOTE=Graham H;1054578]No its f***ing not!!! How can Bong Sau destroy somebodies structure you muppett???..Oh I forgot…you spend all your time hanging off peoples arms with your “attached” WCK :D:D:D:rolleyes:
Terence I’m glad I don’t practice your system of WCK because in the months I’ve been on here I haven’t read anything apart from BS in your posts.
GH[/QUOTE]
You should really learn WCK.
Yo!
Jim now your just being silly and argumentative.
Argue with someone who likes that kind of drama.
[QUOTE=Graham H;1054546]Not true.
GH[/QUOTE]
Yes, it is true.
Bong Sau
Chum Kiu teaches us many things, Bong sau can be used as our bridge, it can be used while stepping, shifting and turning. Snapping the bong sau while moving helps us with body unity, this can translate into other hand motions with whipping energy. It is also used in transition as seen more in the dummy form. It is also used to put something back into the center. A form is just a form, the actual technic is not as important as the meaning, or as what the form is trying to say. So bong sau is just and easy, remember its suppose to be easy, technic to demonstrate and teach, the bridge, turning, stepping, and body unity.
I can agree with what Dave is saying regarding his reply to what people see as ‘shifting’ with bong sau in the form, as well as how it’s used in application (which is what is really the important issue). The ‘intent’ is always toward our opponent, or as he put it, “to crush into and compress the opponents structure.” 
As for bong sau, there is more than one in wing chun. In HFY, we have hok bong and ying bong (crane bong and eagle bong). And their usages vary depending on facing, distance from opponent, gate and/or energy on the bridge.
Sometimes they are used to neutralize an opponent’s grab or bridge and sometimes they are used for destroying the bridge (and there are times where the first will do the second if done correctly). This could be viewed as offensive and defensive bong saus, and both ying and hok bongs can be used in both senses.
But, regardless which bong is used, we are not typically taught to bridge with bong sau. It is more a transition or resulting tool once a bridge has already been established where our current shape has to change to bong sau for various reasons - to penetrate our opponent’s space or open him up, to neutralize a grab, to maintain a position as a result of an opponent trying to crash our structure or enter our space, etc. And in all senses, they all have fwd intent toward our opponent, even if used to shift the attack off line.
[QUOTE=Dave McKinnon;1055053]Jim now your just being silly and argumentative.
Argue with someone who likes that kind of drama.[/QUOTE]
BS Dave… I pointed out that saying people shouldn’t use it because they don’t have structure is silly and it is… The same thing applies to all tools, actions not just a turning Bong… Moreover I also made the point that you simply seemed down on turning in general and regardless of how you feel about it, it’s part of the art…
This is discussing not arguing—if you have a problem with discussing or argument then you’re in the wrong place..
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;1055049]The shift/turning is used to destroy structure.[/QUOTE]
Yes, of course but that’s not all, nor what makes Bong different from other actions/tools..
Bong does not stay—KK
I am going to start a seance and ask Yip man what a bong sao is for ok? Sheesh - no wonder WC gets a bad name!
[QUOTE=trubblman;1055289]I am going to start a seance and ask Yip man what a bong sao is for ok? Sheesh - no wonder WC gets a bad name![/QUOTE]
Welcome to the forum… You might want to start your posting out here with something a little less hackneyed and a little more contributive..
Ok how about this - if your bong sau works for you then that is how it is used - use it like that. You can ask 10 “experts” what something is for and get 5 different answers. I have been a member for a while I just usually refrain from contributing because after a while most answers devolve into ****ing matches and sometimes worse - people challenging one another to actual fights.
[QUOTE=funsau;1054439] There is different various bong sau in chum kil. [/QUOTE]
IMO Bong is used at different levels, some will say its the same bong but i can understand how others refer to them as different. Power generation and supporting body mechanic is certainly different, especially between the upper and lower Bongs.
[QUOTE=funsau;1054439]
I would say about 50% of the chum kil form is bong sau. [/QUOTE]
Looking at it percentage wise isnt as important as realising we are taking actions from SLT and adding a dynamic horse to the equation.
[QUOTE=funsau;1054439]
Do we understand all its application, usage and why so many bong sau?
-thanks [/QUOTE]
I understand my own usage but there are some out there i have questions over. I dont feel better or worse than those people only that what they advocate is not for me.
Saying its for breaking structure is about as useful as saying my punch is for knocking someone out. This mindset is not wrong IMO but more cart before the horse. At its fundamental level…its for blocking a gate and stopping you from getting smacked :o
But do we understand all its applications… just look at the forum buddy LOL
[QUOTE=funsau;1054439]There is different various bong sau in chum kil. I would say about 50% of the chum kil form is bong sau. Do we understand all its application, usage and why so many bong sau?
-thanks[/QUOTE]
The original WC gangstas put all those bon saos in in anticipation of the internet age, to give their great-great-…-greatgrandstudents something to argue about on web forums.
Don’t believe me? All the proof you need is right here on this thread.
I am going to start a seance and ask Yip man what a bong sao is for ok?
I did that once and posted about it on the forum.
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;1055050]You should really learn WCK.[/QUOTE]
No thanks!!! I like PBVT. What you and the rest are agreeing on is complete nonsense!!!
GH
[QUOTE=Graham H;1055316]No thanks!!! I like PBVT. What you and the rest are agreeing on is complete nonsense!!!
GH[/QUOTE]
That’s great that you love what you are doing – WCK is not for everyone.
BTW, I don’t expect you’d know how to break structure with your bong sao when you guys don’t train to do that with your punch.
[QUOTE=trubblman;1055292]Ok how about this - if your bong sau works for you then that is how it is used - use it like that. You can ask 10 “experts” what something is for and get 5 different answers. I have been a member for a while I just usually refrain from contributing because after a while most answers devolve into ****ing matches and sometimes worse - people challenging one another to actual fights.[/QUOTE]
How dare you! If you do not immediately fly to St. Louis and let me kick your ass, you are a coward! 
You are right, if you are using your bong sao successfully, no one can say that how you are doing it is “wrong”. Of course, if you are not fighting so as to see whether or not you can use your bong sao . . . .
Moreover, there may be other ways to use it . . .
FWIW, IMO there are no WCK “experts” or authorities.
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;1055320]That’s great that you love what you are doing – WCK is not for everyone.
BTW, I don’t expect you’d know how to break structure with your bong sao when you guys don’t train to do that with your punch.[/QUOTE]
My punch doesn’t break structures unless you are talking about jaw structures!!!
My Bong Sau is purely to open the way for my punch. In Chum Kiu when we step three times and make Bong Sau\Wu Sau this is purely to train this idea. We cut the way to the opponent, make Bong Sau to open the way for the punch and punch from the Wu Sau position simultaneously. As Chum Kiu is all about teeaching you to fight in the most direct and economical way then this way abides by that concept. The whole form teaches you a method of keeping things simple and efficient whilst being direct with your strikes.
This is a fundamental concept of Ving Tsun and yet most ways I read about on this forum only serve to complicate things in which case deviate from the effectiveness of Ving Tsun.
Pivoting on the balls of your feet, having many Bong Sau’s, being stuck on arms all the time, sensing energies etc etc etc are all stupid ways of applying Ving Tsun.
When we talk about economy of motion, the basic centerline theory, the shortest route between two points is a straight line, cutting the way to the enemy, the punch being supported by the structure of the body and with the elbow inside so we can can defend ourselves whilst attacking…all simple ideas for unarmed combat.
Most theories on here are not economical. There are even people on here that are inventing new centerlines. People say the elbow is not important and yet it is given attention to throughout the whole system. People talk about stepping around, stepping away, stepping to the side. Its all complete b***ox!!!
All you people are doing is making a laughing stock of the system.
So I’m asking you personally Terence, as I don’t live in the States, you show me some footage of your Bong Sau destroying somebodies structure and maybe I can make more sense of the BS.
GH
[QUOTE=Graham H;1055341] . . . . . . . . .
Most theories on here are not economical. There are even people on here that are inventing new centerlines. People say the elbow is not important and yet it is given attention to throughout the whole system. People talk about stepping around, stepping away, stepping to the side. Its all complete b***ox!!!
All you people are doing is making a laughing stock of the system. . . . .GH[/QUOTE]
Is your Sifu is Philip Bayer? If so, I hope he isn’t teaching you lineage bashing and arrogance.:rolleyes:
[QUOTE=Graham H;1055341]My punch doesn’t break structures unless you are talking about jaw structures!!!
{snip}
So I’m asking you personally Terence, as I don’t live in the States, you show me some footage of your Bong Sau destroying somebodies structure and maybe I can make more sense of the BS.
[/QUOTE]
Even in your sub-method breaking structure with the punch is core.. Kevin knows that..because it’s what you are depending on—controlling with your strikes..
The same thing applies to all the tools and I suspect Keven knows that as well.. Regardless of how often you choose to or need to use Bong…
If you really have no idea how Bong can break structure then you never learned Bong..
Are you telling me your Bong has no forward energy?
Because if it doesn’t it won’t/can’t work and isn’t even a Bong.. The form shows you the same action with double Tan’s then double Bong’s with forward stepping, in SLT Bong moves out down the line just like Tan…with forward intent..
Again even in your sub-method when you use Bong to clear the line you should be using forward energy… And it is this combination of the Bong action with this energy that clears the line and breaks their structure..
If that’s not enough all this BS you are handing out about ‘a stupid way to use Chun’ is exactly how WSL’s top students are ‘using it’ and how WSL himself taught it----it’s all on YouTube.. So when you bash you are bashing your own lineage as well..
Or has Bayer created his own art?
Maybe we should ask him…to take a look-see here..
[QUOTE=Phil Redmond;1055388]Is your Sifu is Philip Bayer? If so, I hope he isn’t teaching you lineage bashing and arrogance.:rolleyes:[/QUOTE]
Bashing and arrogance??? He does teach me the bashing bit. The arrogance I purchased myself… Thanks for the compliment.
BTW Phil…you were very quick to dismiss what I wrote which assumes that you think your ideas are better so we both suffer from the same affliction I guess.
In fact everybody on here generally dismisses each others ideas on a day to day basis. We are all guilty. I find it amusing.
GH