chan and wck

Lately, I got some emails questioning about Chan and WCK and Shao Lin… Heaven, earth, man…
This give raise for posting this post.

My view on chan … is as the following.

Chan’s most important key is to give up “self” as the center of one or the universe or cosmos

If this first key cannot be accepted totally and wholely, then , disregard of what one’s reason or theory or practice or meditation, or train from famous monks, or remember or the Koan… the cultivation will not succeed, period.

There is only either one use “self” as center or “no self” as center nothing in between. Thus, Chan called for a totally give up the “self” as the center.

Since, mostly, we as normal human being by default, we are using “self” as center. such as my body, my idea, my home, my lineage of WCK, my money, my sifu…my race… my country. That is just the way we are and we need to accept this before we can go a further step to change the center to “no self” from “self” if we choose to. Can’t jump from Self to no self as center before we accept who we are and work on it.

The second Key is to accept that every occurance/phenomenan (sp) is impermanent.

Thus, Chan called for give up of attachment or taking things so serious that thinking it will be always being the same way.

With acceptance of the Keys above, one immune from hope and fear. since one doesn’t recognize a “self” as one, and since existance is impermant so there is no permenant status to cling on as a reference. ect.

As an example, One gives up anger because what is the reason to get angry? “by who’s standard one let’s one’s thought sequencially link up and run amok to give raise to anger ?”

Not to mention, it is silly to think about the Southern Shao Lin Chan Monks would develop martial art the advance type to become rebels and killing Qing.

So what is Chan go to do with Shao Lin buddhist monks?
With “no self” Qing is living being. Han is living being. All political chaos is just a phenomenon of impermenent. All shall past, why creating cause and effect by make believe Han is me, Qing is you. You killed my people. We are permanent in resenment… Ok then contionus to create a loop of killing karma. you kill me and I kill you… on and on and on similar to the energize Bunny. Is that the mission of Buddhism?
Those who think like these; with “self” and taking every thing as Permanent will suffer.

So, what is Chan got todo with WCK? Well, when one practiced SLT for example, if one doesn’t cling to “oh am I doing this properly?” " oh I am the best in SLT", “oh Tan Sau has to be like this permanently and absolutely.” but accept things and let things flow. Then, that is very Chan. as it was said " as it is". On the other hand, when one accepted not using “self” as reference…
Then, disregard of in sitting meditation or daily life everything is Chan. certainly, as a human, the transformation taking time and process. But if the keys are not accepted. there is no way to overcome the anger or greed or ignorance…

Next time when one is in anger state watch for the source of the anger, not trying to reason with it. See how from no where the anger arise. Certainly, one needs lots of training in Awareness and concentration or Vissapana and samantha but then every one can learn. A thought is just a thought it will raise up and fade. But we just create more after one started. EVeryone tries to be peace but we don’t know the way how to be peaceful. Thus, we study Chan.

But, Until one really really accept the keys above .. most 99% of fighting thoughts raise from the use of “self” as center of universe. most broken of the five precept thoughts raise from self center. (Next time when dinne in chinese restorant, ask love sweat sour pork? barbeque Chicken? Kong Pao Chicken? why is that :smiley: self? )
so, there is no way out if one continous to use “self” as the center. It is great for Website and everyone get creative to discuss about chan. But, IMHO, if the discussion is about scratching each other’s back and not get into the bottom line. Those who really likes to know about Chan will be just cycling in the paradigm of self trying to understand the paradigm of No self.
So what if we learn more about sunyata, lokitasvara…samadhi.. sitting meditation in mountain and due to the tranquil and silence of the natural thinking that is chan…those will not contribute much when things are really chaos daily. and SLT will not progress… but confused between paradigm.

As it said in the song of enlightement,

True is it true?
False is it false?
Missing a hair bread loosing a thousand mile.

That Hair bread is about the platform has to be based on “no-self” center and not attaching to things too deeply ( not that one is not serious) because phenomenon is impemament. With this one will live fully in the present or this instant. instead of living in multi time Zone. such as when doing SLT, the thought is living in multi time zone----- " how does my sifu did last week?" what does the Kuen Kuit said in 1850? why yesterday my Tan is not like this… what time is hongkong now when sigong does his SLT :smiley:

Can’t practice Chan without accepting the above keys and let the past melt. One can no longer live like before anymore, once choosen the Chan’s way. Is that for you? will you willing to give up the flanboyan dream of become the invicinble martial art star or the Greatest gate keeper? will you willing to give up Kong Pao Chicken also? :smiley:

Just my crazy two cents. I don’t know much about Chan. :smiley:
so you can disagree big time. that is ok.

I think you overlook a fundamental self - the You principle. I may choose to forget myself to be you. This happens a lot with newly weds at least during their honeymoon. It balances out a little bit to become the US phenomenon especially when the children are born. What I figure is I am me all along but I change to you when I want to know all about you, and then others if time permitted. Absense of self make other hearts grow fonder. There is no such thing as no self. Ha! Ha!

Regards,

Paul,

NIce try. good post.

good to chose to forget oneself. even if one still has self.

Hendrix,

I like a thing small enough that I can hold on to. Everyone can do it everyday and anywhere if they choose to. It is our deliberate and conscious act of laying aside our needs, desires, and even our life for the goods of others that made us so human.

Regards,

Self and the Universe.

I think that first - one must understand Self, and this can most certainly be a very difficult thing to do.

Second, one must understand their relationship to the universe.

Third, then one can understand that they do not “exist” as a seperate entity because they are part of the universe itself.

“It is like a finger pointing to the moon.”

Re: Self and the Universe.

I think that first - one must understand Self, and this can most certainly be a very difficult thing to do.–S

Great start.
Sure not easy. to accept reality is even hard. -HS

Second, one must understand their relationship to the universe. --S

This is nice and logically yes.
However, this is where Chan travel into different direction and 99.9% of people side track.
With a “self” no matter how one understand their relationship. It still based on a “self” as the reference of universe.

So why not let go the “self” and living as as a part of universe?
With “self” based it is call differentiating mind. with “no self” it is called the wonderfull contemplation wisdom.IMHO. HS

Third, then one can understand that they do not “exist” as a seperate entity because they are part of the universe itself. -S

This is still rely on “self” based reference. “understand” and “living” are two very different things. Understand about breathing and breathing is different thing.
Thus, there is meditation and raise from meditation. How can one achieve unity within the state of silence of meditation and the state of busy chaos living? can’t.

A baby just breath… - not understand breathing. HS

“It is like a finger pointing to the moon.” -S

For thousands of years, the buddha and patriachs of the past and present have had lay down the map clearly and precisely.

It is the follower not willing to make a decision to let go the “self” centered paradigm because most think “fame, money, business, Winning, country, race… lineage” are real and permenent.
Not to realize, when one closed one’s eyes one can bring nothing but the karma. similar to one cannot bring one’s credit card into dream but one brings one’s like and dislike and way of thinking into dream.

Some even think the understand of Chan will be able to make one’s “self” based paradigm to become stronger then others. Not to realzed that Chan is about shifting paradigm so that one no longer suffer and not about making the “self” based paradigm stronger.

Even seing the moon is useless if one doesn’t believe moon is real and still continous to think how to use Chan to strenghtern one’s “self” center paradigm. IMHO. -HS

If one decided to shift the paradigm. then there is no problem to take all the precepts of Surangama. If one continous believe in the “self” based paradigm, then one can’t even take one single precept. Because, one will asked ---- what’s wrong with figthing and killing ? since I need to defend myself.:smiley:

Gate Gate paragate parasem gate bodhi svaha.
A Cross the sea of suffering and achieve the wisdom, but then, if there is no Boddhi Citta — let go the “self”, one is only viewing the otherside of the sea but live in this side of the shore-- amd stay suffering when the discussion of the story of the other side ended.

disclaimer: Believe me on your own risk. If you become a monk. like the bullet proof monk. your wife can’t sue me.:smiley:

Try this,
http://www.wisdom-books.com/ProductDetail.asp?CatNumber=4896
and you will forget about the legend of ShaoLin figthing fighting.

Originally posted by PaulH
[B]Hendrix,

I like a thing small enough that I can hold on to. Everyone can do it everyday and anywhere if they choose to. It is our deliberate and conscious act of laying aside our needs, desires, and even our life for the goods of others that made us so human.

Regards, [/B]

I don’t like even to hold a small thing. If I have to hold on a small thing. The only small thing I like to hold on to is Om MaNY Padme Hum. the rest are too complicated.:wink:

Touch the tao

So, what is Chan got todo with WCK?

Everything and nothing of course if you truly understand chan.

If I have to hold on a small thing. The only small thing I like to hold on to is

if you keep holding on to your sall thing won’t you go blind:)

Originally posted by Ernie
[B]If I have to hold on a small thing. The only small thing I like to hold on to is

if you keep holding on to your sall thing won’t you go blind:) [/B]

Keep holding on to your GPA otherwise you will be lost.
Keep holding on to your GBA and play the Yugioh game.
Keep holding on to your “self” and have fun suffering. Hey it feels good. :smiley:

Re: Touch the tao

Originally posted by canglong
[B]

Everything and nothing of course if you truly understand chan. [/B]

Is Chan a teaching to realize No Self or an advertisment to show about following the fashion on reading new age Dao books? :smiley:

the fau kiu

is this :smiley: your chan or just your answer for everything?

No Self and Self

Can you answer this: how can someone understand “No Self” if they do not have a true concept of “Self” in the first place? It is human nature to begin with self as you also mentioned.

Understand the basic nature of all things first, then harmonize with it.

Chan, no self and non-attachment to things is inherent in all non-living things. I always say a rock is pure Chan as it knows no sufferings because it has no self due to its superior naturally endowned enlightenment state. Ha! Ha! Human beings, on the other hand, cannot live like a rock. Can one live in a world of no right and wrong, or in an impersonal and indifferent cosmos? Thus so far I stubbornly hold on to a little of my"self" in the face of an increasingly cold and impersonal universe.

Regards,

Hi Paul…

Originally posted by PaulH
[B] Can one live in a world of no right and wrong in an impersonal and indifferent cosmos? Thus so far I stubbornly hold on to a little of my"self" in the face of an increasingly cold and impersonal universe.

Regards, [/B]

Hi Paul,

  1. We have to understand both cause and effect (karma) as well as the consequences of all actions and reactions. In a world of no right and no wrong there is also a right and a wrong. What defines the right and wrong of killing? Necessity, not preference. That leads into a more scientific approach to understanding reality, and thus, easier to accept living in an “impersonal and indifferent cosmos”.

  2. An “increasingly cold and impersonal universe” is a very emotionally based comment and has nothing to do with the universe at all, only your view of it. The universe only consists of Time, Space, and Energy. Emotions are a reality of our own existence.

Re: No Self and Self

Originally posted by Savi
[B]Can you answer this: how can someone understand “No Self” if they do not have a true concept of “Self” in the first place? It is human nature to begin with self as you also mentioned.

Understand the basic nature of all things first, then harmonize with it. [/B]

Does a CPU MUST runs Window operating system in order to activate it’s machine language exercution?

Certainly, for learning, it is great to have a Machine Language emulator in Window environment to understand Machine language. But, emulation is an emulation.

Who understand? What is the basic nature? when everything is impermenant. Thus, it is about let go not about learning more based on one’s “I” center paradigm. it is about emptying not about to collect more things…

Re: the fau kiu

Originally posted by canglong
is this :smiley: your chan or just your answer for everything?

Chan teaching is a teaching. A method of persuing buddha nature.
Thus, it can be describe precise and concise what is Chan teaching.

Everything is everything. since Everything is impermenant, Thus, answer for everything cannot be folumated and catagolized permanently but based on situation and condition. And, there might have or might not have an answer.

Re: Hi Paul…

Originally posted by Savi
[B]
Hi Paul,

  1. We have to understand both cause and effect (karma) as well as the consequences of all actions and reactions. In a world of no right and no wrong there is also a right and a wrong. What defines the right and wrong of killing? Necessity, not preference. That leads into a more scientific approach to understanding reality, and thus, easier to accept living in an “impersonal and indifferent cosmos”.

  2. An “increasingly cold and impersonal universe” is a very emotionally based comment and has nothing to do with the universe at all, only your view of it. The universe only consists of Time, Space, and Energy. Emotions are a reality of our own existence. [/B]

Great logic.
However, is it “it” or is it “it” based on “I”?

“The universe only consists of Time, Space, and Energy.”

There is “no a thing”, where will it collect dust? ----- 6th patriach.

Universe … Time, space, energy… lots and lots of space to colect dust and dust and dust…

One can’t exist without the other. There is inherent yin in yang and vice versa.

Originally posted by Phil Redmond
One can’t exist without the other. There is inherent yin in yang and vice versa.

How to get from One to Zero?

Hey Joy, speak up! since Indian explore the needs of Zero…