Kiu Sao Progression
Sorry for not putting more input into this, or making it sound like a loaded question. I primarily just wanted some input from different perspectives about Kiu Sao/Chi Sao. I was wondering what kind of Kiu Sao is defined or categorized in other lineages/styles. Well, let me share some things coverd on Kiu Sao in the November workshop at the VTM.
HFY Kiu Sao at the HFY SNT level is trained in 5 progressions. In order:
Fut Sao Kiu Sao, Gahn Sao Kiu Sao, Biu Sao Kiu Sao, Bong Sao Kiu Sao, and Kwan Sao Kiu Sao.
Hung Fa Yi Kiu Sao is based on the Saam Mo Kiu concept - Wandering; Fau Kiu - Awareness; Saan Kiu - Focused; Weng Kiu. The first three Kiu Sau progression teaches us to deal with situations from a disadvantageous position (Fau Kiu), where you are attacked from the side varying in distance (precontact or contact), arm straight or bent (on contact) from a state of unawareness. The last two Kiu Sao progressions deal with an attack from the front (Saan Kiu where an attack enters the inside or outside your lead hand).
These progressions train only/specifically forearm to forearm contact (both arms), and find how one goes from Kiu Sao to San Da (hitting) without going to Chi Sao. From my understanding of HFY’s definition, Chi Sao (wrist to arm) is required when the opponent has any possibility of return fire, or is able to neutralize/bypass your Kiu Sao technique (listed above). These Kiu Sao were covered during the workshop.
-Savi.
To McKind13,
I apologize, but this does not address the thread at hand…
Insecurities, false claims… Maybe we do, maybe we don’t. According to your post, you are implying that some people in the HFY family are also acting like children or don’t know what we are talking about. I cannot speak for any one person other than myself, (but to me) you are doing the same thing everybody else is doing in a MUCH MORE polite manner, which I personally appreciate :). You are asking us to take a look at ourselves before we interact with the public; to look in the mirror, which is fine. The HFY family has many people in it with their own personalities and have a right to express themselves as they please and feel. I ask myself, is my tea cup clean? Is it empty? Yes and yes.
The HFY family traces their lineage back to the Hung Fa Ting/Weng Chun Tong in the Southern Shaolin Temple, as does a few other families to the Hung Fa Ting according to VTM research. Many articles have been published about our lineage to share our information, but it puzzles me that certain parties on this forum accuse us of making up stories and call it marketing. Why receive the HFY family in such a ‘childish’ manner? They tell us to “Prove it!” and put us on trial using the ‘academic method’ (by andrews: prove you’re right method) instead of the ‘scientific method’ (restated by taltos: prove it’s wrong). A trial requires the ‘innocent until proven guity’ perspecitve right? The question I am inclined to ask in return is “Prove us wrong…” It’s an honest question. Has anybody tried to take this perspective? I am relatively new to the kung fu community, but it makes me wonder if all kung fu families had to go through the same process when they were introduced to the general public.
McKind13, put yourself in our shoes. Many people will not accept us for even existing, and will not acknowledge that we may have something different. They come back and say “We have that too.” OK, in what way? In form? In structure? In logic flow? In energy? In training progression(s)? You have Kiu Sao, I have Kiu Sao, it’s all the same right? “It doesn’t matter that HFY looks and moves different, we have everything they do.” HMMM… Let me point the mirror to you. WHY is the HFY structure different? Where did it come from? How did it evolve to look the way it does? I will tell you the answer is NOT a marketing device, personal decision, or personal expression; not because somebody thought it looked cool, or better than something else. “Oh, it must be the Time and Space Concept thing!” Whatever that is, right? Exactly… (refer the kungfu cowboy’s thread (example) on the Time and Space Concept for explanations)
Context is everything, and in kung fu, context is in the mind as well as in the body. The context may bring you to a whole new level in your kung fu [if it is recognized]. Something inside you understood that and satisfied your curiosity in Ohio, or you would have followed up with your invitation to Sifu Loewenhagen’s school right? How much have you thought about what you heard/expereinced at the VTM? You say you didn’t see much difference in the HFY, but everybody else at the seminar [that wasn’t from the HFY family] saw much more. What is it they saw that you didn’t? The Siu Nihm Tau form isn’t much different? Footwork? Idioms? Training methods? Your statement about ‘not much different’ tells me that HFY looks like everything else. With different structure comes different applications, principles, natures, concepts, tactics and strategies. But it is not much different? If the language is the same but the context is different, should one ask ‘why?’ or ‘how?’ as opposed to others that say ‘it’s all the same anyway.’ ?
I really respect you as a martial artist and a Sifu, please don’t read this as being hostile. You and I did Kiu Sao at the VTM and I remember that your perspective did change from the start to the end of the seminar. How relevant is that difference? You sacrificed your time/money/energy to go out and experience HFYWCK, took many notes, asked many questions, and meet with the Sifus of HFY, but its sounds like your post is saying you didn’t gain or notice much. Fascinating. Why take so many notes and ask so many questions if not much was new/different? I don’t understand where you’re coming from.
Third, “innocent until proven guilty,” while adopted in certain criminal courts, is not the standard for proving anything (drug companies don’t tell the FDA “prove our drug does work and is safe!”)-- the criminal courts standard of proof is “beyond a reasonable doubt.”
) So, to tie it all together, we can use the various Kiu Sao terms, speak of Chi Sao, etc. but the goal behind them can never be forgotten, lest it become cataloging for cataloging’s sake.