I believe these are the 14 Kiuh Sau methods Chango and I were discussing before that thread was closed.
1 Tiu (Pick up “with a stick”)
2 Buot (push aside)
3 Da (hit)
4 Pun (fold)
5 Juar (grasp)
6 Lai (pull)
7 See (shear)
8 Tshai (quick pull)
9 Bik Force (cornering someone)
10 Hup (continue to put pressure on - “overpowering”)
11 Taan (swallow)
12 Tuo (spit)
13 Buort (taking change - “gamble”)
14 Saat (stop - “kill/subdue totally”)
If anyone has any experience with Gee Sim Weng Chun and wants to continue do explore these Bridge Hand methods then let me know.
Tiu - to pick up with a stick. Does this mean the first method is to seize an opponent? Like Chin Na?
As Hoffman Sifu, explained the kiu sau cannot be understood through the spoken or written word! “we must share the expiences of the kiu sau!” This is an example of the unique relationship shared by Sifu/student, Student to student etc… So it would be somewhat pointless to try to explain via this format.
Tiu can be discribed as lifting from inside to out. Then again this still does not give the concept justice. With out shared experience we could go on like this for thread after thread. I’m sorry I do not have time for this. maybe we could discuss other aspects of CHI SIM?
Everything understandable is explainable in written form, be they feelings of joy or sorrow, physics real and theoretical, music classical and hip hop, enlightenment vulgar and profound.
Shakespeare
Chekov
Laozi
Hawking
Motzart
Musashi
These popular examples and thousands of others were not oafs shilling simple whims.
The only time something can’t be shared to some extent in written form is when an individual is:
Unwilling
Unable
For the latter, writing is a skill like any other, through practice, it will grow and sharpen. Take a look at the Taijiquan classics, or ask someone what a Kuen Po is.
For the former, there’s no help, but it would save time to be upfront about it.
Originally posted by Chango As Hoffman Sifu, explained the kiu sau cannot be understood through the spoken or written word! “we must share the expiences of the kiu sau!”
Grandmaster Hoffman and Chango are right on the money. A forum can only convey an idea of an experience, but it cannot replace the experience itself. Because of this, and without ‘you’ and ‘I’ speaking from the same experience, a common understanding is near impossible.
Certainly things can be explained so long as all parties involved have a similar grounding of that specific experience to achieve the appropriate understanding. Being that we are discussing martial arts - and from various lineages, common experiences are vital to discussion.
Many of the greatest physicist have managed to discuss some of the most complicated ideas known to man in a easy manner. Is wing chun more difficult than physics?
The musicians, poets, and authors have related experiences over millennia. Can’t be too hard to do. What similar experience did Hellen Kellar have?
I’m sure more could be added to that list. Or perhaps they fall under the 2 you have listed. For example, under “unable” we would have “unknowledgable”. Under “unwilling” we could have “arrogant”. Or perhaps one is unwilling because he/she is unable. Translating the add-ons… One is arrogant to disguise the “unknowledgableness”.
If someone doesn’t want to share, I have no problem with that. If someone considers something the precious treasure of their KF family and believes they’ve spent significant time/effort to understand/achieve it and do not want to pass it along in anything other than direct, one-on-one verbal/physical exchange, just say so and I understand completely. Likewise, if you don’t understand it yourself well enough to feel confident relaying it, or you think it would take more effort than you’re willing to give to do it, that’s fine to. Or even if someone’s sifu just said please don’t post this on the internet. No problem. There’s no gun to anyone’s head, and no one is (whether they mistakenly think so or not) entitled to anything from anyone here.
But please don’t say its “unexplainable”, which aside from it obviously not being (difficult, perhaps, time consuming maybe, but impossible? try cold fusion sometime), creates a lot of noise and back and forth bikering where there really doesn’t have to be any.
I agree with Hoffman Sifu. Although writing is a good way of communicating, its no substitute for the actual experience.
Yes, there has been multitude of writing on physics and other more complicated concepts than wing chun, but no physicist learned physics just out of a book. The concepts discussed in the textbooks are always supplemented by lab experiments and field work.
Anne Sullivan didn’t just describe water to Helen Keller. See the excerpt below:
Helen later recounted the incident:
“We walked down the path to the well-house, attracted by the fragrance of the honey-suckle with which it was covered. Someone was drawing water and my teacher placed my hand under the spout. As the cool stream gushed over one hand she spelled into the other the word water, first slowly, then rapidly. I stood still, my whole attention fixed upon the motions of her fingers. Suddenly I felt a misty consciousness as of something forgotten, a thrill of returning thought, and somehow the mystery of language was revealed to me.”
Written communication is important but can be a source of confusion and misunderstanding. As everyone will interpret the writing based on their own experience. No good teacher, especially of something like wing chun, would rely soley on it, nor should a good student.
Originally posted by linebacker
[B]I agree with Hoffman Sifu. Although writing is a good way of communicating, its no substitute for the actual experience.
Yes, there has been multitude of writing on physics and other more complicated concepts than wing chun, but no physicist learned physics just out of a book. The concepts discussed in the textbooks are always supplemented by lab experiments and field work…
Written communication is important but can be a source of confusion and misunderstanding. As everyone will interpret the writing based on their own experience. No good teacher, especially of something like wing chun, would rely soley on it, nor should a good student. [/B]
Linebacker,
I believe you and I come from a similar understanding! Truth and reality can only be fully understood through ALL of your body’s senses. Complimenting that thought, this what Zen Buddhism also stresses.
Truth and reality can only be fully understood through ALL of your body’s senses. Complimenting that thought, this what Zen Buddhism also stresses.
More to it. In the Surangama sutra- a Chan classic… the dialogue-
leads one through the use of sight, sound etc— eventually showing that disciplined “understanding” is the key—the
non delusional mind.
I have a part hearing loss- but a touch can tell me a lot.
And while the disciplined experience is important to Chan—
one can still have dialogoues that point to the way.
Originally posted by yuanfen And while the disciplined experience is important to Chan—
one can still have dialogoues that point to the way.
True, but I would like to make certain we on the same page that “pointing the way” cannot replace the way itself, right?
For me, I am not challenging the aspect of the thread that “things can or can’t be explained/written due to…” I am stressing the point that the “written word” cannot be fully understood in its complete context without experiencing it as well. This (discussion + a common experience) can only lead to a more informed judgement and prosperous discussion as well, I think.
