weng kiu
The Grandmaster of Chi Sim Weng Chun states that kiu sau is something better taught in class as opposed to an internet forum I have met him and Mckind13 both and will trust that the Grandmaster is correct in this particular matter.
canglong wrote:
The Grandmaster of Chi Sim Weng Chun states that kiu sau is something better taught in class as opposed to an internet forum I have met him and Mckind13 both and will trust that the Grandmaster is correct in this particular matter. C
Lots of things are “better taught” in person – golf, tennis, wing chun – but nevertheless they can be discussed or written about. Moreover, that discussion or writing can have a positive effect on the individuals involved and in their performance of the respective activity (a hands-on lesson from Tiger Woods is better than reading an article on driving by him, but the article may still help your game). Certainly nothing will substitute good, hands-on instruction – and I don’t think anyone here is suggesting that. But IME oftentimes a different perspective, a different phrase, someone putting it a way I haven’t heard before will spark me to look at what I’m doing in a new way and open up some door I hadn’t looked into. TN
But I have a question about Andreas’ kiu sao: where did it come from? Which lineages of Fung Siu Ching make use of the “14 kiu sao”? TN
Terence
“But I have a question about Andreas’ kiu sao: where did it come from? Which lineages of Fung Siu Ching make use of the “14 kiu sao”?” - TN
Terence why not e-mail GM Hoffman and ask him? By persuing that course of action any answer you receive will be directly from the source.
-David
It also depends to whom you are speaking. With beginners, pages and pages may no suffice, and even hands on might only give the faintest of inclings. With some experienced folk, a few lies of text can share profound amounts.
Before Hendrik and I met, in a few emails we shared great understandings for each others arts, likewise with Jim Roselando and myself when he took up Pien San.
So, while no one can learn physics absent lab work and hopefully real world work as well, physicists can pick up a science journal and read an article from within their field and understand quite a bit (and then decide to follow up particular interests as warrented).
But as I said, no one has to share anything, and no one may be able to share something, so to each their own, and I’ll go back to David’s thread where a several year student is sharing reems and some of us with experience are understanding him just fine (for those keeping track, that’s an experiment proving the thesis :P)
desertwingchun2 wrote:
Terence why not e-mail GM Hoffman and ask him? By persuing that course of action any answer you receive will be directly from the source. DW2
What do you mean “directly from the source”? I didn’t ask where he got them from; I asked where they came from (are you suggesting that Hoffman is the source of the 14 kiu sao?) and which lineages of Fung Siu Ching had them. I thought some of you had studied with Andreas – are you saying that none of his students on this forum, including those that are “instructors” in Chi Shim weng chun, are able to answer the question? TN
Terence
Just back from LA and a great day of training with my Sifu 
(Chango Wrote) Tiu can be described as lifting from inside to out. Then again this still does not give the concept justice. With out shared experience we could go on like this for thread after thread. I’m sorry I do not have time for this. maybe we could discuss other aspects of CHI SIM?
Chango my friend. Lifting from inside to out is extremely descriptive. Wth a few more words I am sure I could understand a little better. Perhaps even compare it to a like energy in the Wing Chun I practice. Thanks.
Buot (push aside) - To me this sounds like displacing the opponents energy (i.e. the side body Pak) or perhaps turning the opponent after contact. Chango if you want to participate, that would be cool.
David
Okay guys,
This is a Kiu Sou thread, lets not get to far off track or I’ll sick Sandman and alpha dog on you all.
Desert Wing Chun any speculation on the the next point of the 14 Kiu Sou?
Have you gone through the instructors course?
Thanks
David
desertwingchun, let me refer you to the thread on paranoia . . . the question came up as to where Robert’s 18 chi sao methods came from and we, his students, said that he organized them himself but that the material was inherent in WCK . . . so my question is simply where did the 14 kiu sao come from – is this Andreas’ organization of Fung Siu Ching’s material (and there is nothing wrong with that if it is) or Way Yan’s organization or someone else’s? Can anyone answer this question?
Terence
The 18 Kiu Concepts are the heart of Weng Chun and every family knows these concepts. They come directly from Southern Shaolin.
CU
FuTaiChi
FuTaiChi
Hi. Can you post these same methods found in another Shaolin art and the source please.
If you have some expertise maybe you can post your understanding of a few of them.
David
BTW- Just for fun, I went and checked my copy of Andreas Hoffmann sifu’s excellent (still by far the best work I’ve ever seen) book on Weng Chun Kuen, and lo and behold, right there in good ole text, are the 14 Kiu Sao methods with short explinations following each. Unfortunately, they’re in German. Perhaps I’ll have time to pop them into babblefish or the like next week.
Sigh.
Sifu Hoffman
All,
Sifu Hoffman has emailed me, and politely requested that any and all discussion of Chi Shim please not be had on this msg board. If you have questions regarding them, he would very much like for you to email him directly. I’m not going to censor people discussing Chi Shim, but he would appreciate it if people wouldn’t discuss it on here. Just thought I’d let you know.
A sensible position- I sure dont care to discuss any art besides wing chun.
Let things that cannot be discussed be…Jee Shim, etc…
((However- if Gee Shim together with VTM’s BM publishes articles as they have (Kung Fu-Qigong may-June 2002) in a public area- mentioning 14 principles- it stands to reason it can be discussed
anywhere asking for further public clarification—though I dont see the usefulness of discussing it.
Its a little tiresome to be told of things in Jee Shim or anyther system that are made into mysteries requiring off list communications- visitations etc. So why not let both groups be- and let them do whatever it is that they are doing?
And ignore their comments and sarcasms in the forum.
Equity also points to Firehawk and others not mentioninga thing about Gee Shim…??? Not just those who have sought clarifications…
Originally posted by Sandman2[Wing Chun]
Sifu Hoffman has emailed me, and politely requested that any and all discussion of Chi Shim please not be had on this msg board.
LOL! That’s hilarious!
Okay everyone, please, out of respect for my lineage, I would like to not have any discussion of the Ip Man lineage on this forum.
If you have any questions regarding Ip Man lineage, you can private message me, personally.
I do not want anything about myself to be discussed in this forum.
email old jong if you have any questions. Given his line of work-
he knows all about me that you need to know. And I promise not to throw anything at him including . (see DSM lV- p 777 for the hint about my system )).
Here are the 14(18) Kiu sao of weng chun, some families are using 14 some families 18:
the idea is that you feel the connection with your partners(opponents) and the invironment you feel them thru relaxation, from there you learn to find and to use natural the bridge, or more advanced the bridge finds you because you are empty:
1.Tiu (pick up) - 2.Buot (push aside)
3.Da (striking) - 4.Pun (folding)
5.Juar (grasping-push) - 6.Lei (pull (“a waggon”))
7.See (tear)-8.Tshai (pull (“to open”)
9.Kam (catch)-10.Na (hold)
11Fuong (prevent free movement/shield)- 12.Nghai (totally prevent free movement)
13.Bik (cornering someone)-14.Hup (further development)
15.Tan (swallow)-16.Tuo (spit)
17.Bot (trick)-18.Saat(kill)
Some families explaining all 18 with 14 (without Nr.: 9./10./11./12.)
Mo Kiu Mahn Yau Kiu
Kiu Loi Kiu Sheung Gwo
Lei Kiu bin jik da
Andreas Hoffmann
RR wrote:
Just for fun, I went and checked my copy of Andreas Hoffmann sifu’s excellent (still by far the best work I’ve ever seen) book on Weng Chun Kuen, and lo and behold, right there in good ole text, are the 14 Kiu Sao methods with short explinations following each. Unfortunately, they’re in German.
Aha! So they can be described in writing (Andreas does it on the forum too). Come to think of it, they’re even writing a book about HFY . . . makes me sort of wonder what the fuss about talking about these arts in writing is all about. TN
Andreas Hoffman wrote:
Here are the 14(18) Kiu sao of weng chun, some families are using 14 some families 18 . . .
What? 18? Did they steal this number from Robert Chu? 
LOL! Sorry, just kidding . . . sometimes the lunacy is so prevailing . . . . TN
Terence
I have no problems posting information!
I personally have no problem posting information about HFY or Chi Sim. I have found that with out having " shared expiences" assumptions are often made and ideas tend to get lost. It seems that without shared experiences the internet only serves as a method of what Rene Ritchie coined as “exchanging levels of misunderstanding” so It again goes back to the same reason you cannot learn Kung fu from a video tape or book.
I have no problem sharing information. I just have problems with disrespect and illintent. I find this to be waist of my time as well as the time of others envolved. It is a said state that one cannot discuss WCK without having some jumping in and creating sides or showing disrespect to the lineage, person or information all together. We all would benifit alot from focusing on our common ground instead of what makes our families different. It does not take a rocket scientist or brain surgeon to see that each family has some types of differences. In HFY we have a concept called maximum efficiency we have methods of testing this with through out the entire system. This term may offend some but this is how it is passed on in HFY. If discussing this issue you must remeber it is not saying better then one lineage or the other. One must challenge the HFY on it’s proof of ME when one has a first hand chance. The system demands this from it’s students as the system is being passed. So one should not take this personal. Just as with the Moy Yat system there is a term called the “unstopable” Techniques. Of course the Moy Yat system has a context which is used to explain this. None the less respect should be paid to the system and it’s family. After all if we back up and look at the over all picture we are all in one big family!
one must pay proper respect to those who are Sifu’s or concidered Grandmaster’s of thier lineages. Some families may choose not to have this format. However respect should be given to those who have the responsiblity of guiding others through the system. That can be a great responsibility. one must also pay respect to his or her sources when presenting information. So let’s move on and get into a more positive discussion.
Chango (saat geng sau) Noaks
Weng kiu answers?
I would just add to what my Sibak Chango has already put forth by suggesting this forum is merely one of many starting points when seeking answers to general questions. Any detailed information should always be followed up with more personal research and a visit to a qualified instructor whenever possible.
BTW- Just for fun, I went and checked my copy of Andreas Hoffmann sifu’s excellent (still by far the best work I’ve ever seen) book on Weng Chun Kuen, and lo and behold, right there in good ole text, are the 14 Kiu Sao methods with short explinations following each. Unfortunately, they’re in German. Perhaps I’ll have time to pop them into babblefish or the like next week. Rene Ritchie
Just one example of researching a general question. The details of these 14 kiu sau which are very intricate could only properly be shared with the experience of a qualified practitioner such as Grandmaser Hoffmann or one of his students also very knowledgable on the topic of the Chi Sim Weng Chun system.
What is the problem of discussing Kung Fu? One can write music down. One can make a 3D picture on a 2D surface. I think the problem is understanding both Kung Fu and communication. If we are all doing wing chun, then we should have a common base. It’s not wing chun if it is that different from what we all experience I would think.
If written words can not convey wing chun, a picture certainly cannot. Yet there are tons of books on wing chun. And dancing. and other topics that must be felt or experienced. If we can not discus, they why have a forum?
Spyder