About seven years ago I began researching a few of the differences between the many versions of Bung Bu that I have seen.
Here is a small comparison on one small section of Bung Bu. Please feel free to add your comments!
WHF Seven Star Praying Mantis
Ascend Mountain, Left Thrust Palm
Ascend Mountain, Right Insert Strike
Vertical Leap, Seal Gathering Strike
Enter Ring, Right Fold Elbow
Enter Ring, Right Crushing Strike
At Back Kick, Double Turn Palms
Horse Stance, Double Seal Hands
CCK Tai Chi Praying Mantis
Ascend Mountain, Left Thrust Palm
Ascend Mountain, Right Insert Strike
Left Lift Knee, Right High Grab/Left Palm Strike
Right Lift Knee, Right Fold Elbow
Right Jade Ring, Right Crushing Strike
Twist Stance, Hang & Spear Hand
Horse Stance, Double Seal Hand
Tai Chi Praying Mantis
Seven Star, Right Nation Palm
Jade Ring, Right Carry Hand into a Punch
Right Twist Stance, Double Hook Grabs
Right Lift Knee, Right Coiling Elbow
Right Jade Ring, Right Crushing Strike
Twist Stance, Left Colliding Claw/Right Palm
Reverse Bow Stance, Double Seal Hands (Smoothly Drag Sheep)
Note that I used the Seven Star terminology through most of the comparisons unless I was aware of terminology used with the style that I described.
A very interesting thread. I study CCK Tai Chi Praying mantis kung fu. A Sifu in my system, Sifu Tse has written a book on this form Taichi Mantis Peng Pu Boxing. He lists 56 moves.
The following is a video of my performance of CCK Tai Chi Praying mantis Bung Bu Chuan.
Gunglihchuan,
Nice execution of the form in your video! Thanks for participating in this discussion!
I have translated part of the book mentioned (the English translation in the book didn’t always accurately reflect the Chinese text) and have seen several videos of the form on YouTube. My favorite video of the CCK TJPM version on YouTube was Alexander Tse demonstrating the form slowly for reference purposes. It was very helpful for my research.
If others are willing to join in the discussion, I will post more comparative sections of the the form.
Richard
I know only about 30 Chinese characters but I think that translation inaccuracies will always be a problem with English and Asian languages. They are very different but it does give you an interesting insight into their culture.
I also agree that Sifu Tse has a great many excellent clips of CCK Tai Chi Praying mantis Bung Bu and the CCK Tai Chi Praying Mantis system in general.
I think it is very interesting to look at the similarities and differences concerning the original northern praying mantis form. This thread would be great material for a series of articles in any martial arts magazine.
Othal,
I like the way you “flow” through that form. Very nice!
I only see one difference in the way I learned the form from my instructor, Mike Biggie, and that is in the way you do and apply , deng shan zuo cha zhang/ascend mountain, left thrust palm. Is the zuo chong zhao/left colliding claw before the cha zhang/thrust palm how you were taught the form, or is a personal innovation?
Either way I think it is very interesting! It was nice to see that application.
Thank you for sharing!
Richard
Othal,
Interesting explanation of the “suspend” and “crashing” keyword theories.
How long have you practiced chut sing tang lang? You apparently have many years experience.
All,
I think one of the most interesting differences in the three styles that I compared is the TJPM “smoothly lead the sheep” (WHF 7* calls this double seal hands).
In the 7* PM and CCK TJPM the action ends in a Horse or Riding Tiger Stance, while in TJPM the practitoner faces the opposite direction in an Ascend Mountain stance. The final position looks almost like the practitioner is performing a right gwa and a left uppercut strike, yet it is actually akin to the double seal hands.
Any thoughts on this?
Over the years I have had the opportunity to have studied multiple versions of Bung Bu within some of the various 7* and Northern lines.
For me, when I watch someone playing Bung Bu (7* or Northern), I pay considerable attention to the body and how its transitions from the intro through the tiger stances and on to the first mantis catches the cicada.
I find almost all of the following variations of the form irrelevant. If one is only concerned with the individual postures, and if there is depth in the curriculum that is being studied, one usually will encounter some, if not most, or even all of the different variations in later or advanced sets even though different lineages may be involved. Yes there may be exceptions, but then one would need to have an idea of what is implied by “depth in the curriculum”.
However, Mooyingmantis, I do applaud your research and I know from experience that it can be an interesting yet dubious task of tracing some of the changes. Who, what, how, why, when and where can become intriguing and sometimes entertaining.
For me, when I watch someone playing Bung Bu (7* or Northern), I pay considerable attention to the body and how its transitions from the intro through the tiger stances and on to the first mantis catches the cicada.
I find almost all of the following variations of the form irrelevant. If one is only concerned with the individual postures, and if there is depth in the curriculum that is being studied, one usually will encounter some, if not most, or even all of the different variations in later or advanced sets even though different lineages may be involved. Yes there may be exceptions, but then one would need to have an idea of what is implied by “depth in the curriculum”.[/QUOTE]
Lol, I learned three different transitions from the same teacher.
I agree as to the redundancy in 7* PM. As the old spaghetti sause commercial said, “It’s in there!” Over and over the same ideas are in one form after another. From Beng Bu Quan to Yin Yi Lu Bai Yuan Kui Yan the principles repeat and build.
I am curious out of the different variations of Bung bu what is your favourite?
I have only ever trained the 7* and CCK Tai Chi mantis Bung bu under sifu Tse and I do tend to favour the CCK Tai Chi version
[QUOTE=Davemantis;973133]I am curious out of the different variations of Bung bu what is your favourite?
I have only ever trained the 7* and CCK Tai Chi mantis Bung bu under sifu Tse and I do tend to favour the CCK Tai Chi version[/QUOTE]
I like the 7* version for its straight forward, no nonsense linear approach. I like the CCK TJPM version for its aesthetic beauty. I believe both are devastatingly effective and teach important principles. So I don’t really prefer one or the other. I respect both equally for what they offer.
Mooyingmantis
I understand what you are saying about you teach what works for you.
I think the reason I like the CCK TC Bung bu is because it helps me understand more the movement, energy and so on. I suppose the CCK TC Bung Bu is making my 7* Bung Bu a little softer and allowing it to flow better. I also suppose its inevitable that if you have 2 or more variations of the same form that they will cross over and blend a little even if its not physically visible to everyone.
I’m under the impression that seven star mantis has power generation as a core attribute and that it shows in how forms are played. Not sure this is soimething that should change. What do you think?
These were written by Professor Randy Choy of Honolulu. He studied under Sifu David Cheng who was one of Chiu Chuk Kai’s disciples in Vietnam. Here are the links and some excerpts:
Training in “Thrusting Foot Boxing” One of the most awesome hand forms of the Taiji praying Mantis Boxing system is the “Thrusting Foot Boxing” (Beng Bo), which consists of fifty-six postures. My students always want to know the secret of learning this very old boxing form. My answer is: you have to understand the twelve kinds of praying mantis fighting techniques which led to the creation of the form some 300 years ago from Mr. Wang Lang of the Northern Sung Dynasty.
So let’s go through “Thrusting Foot Boxing” and I will give you examples of where these twelve fighting techniques are.
In my martial arts classes, I instruct a number of qualified martial arts instructors. Their responses are beyond that of the average martial arts practitioner. It is because of their desire to learn more about Northern Praying Mantis boxing that I decided to share my knowledge to all of you in what to look for in analyzing a boxing form. Of course, you must show some caution: a little knowledge can be dangerous. So proceed slowly and remember, I’m not trying to sell you a martial arts form, but rather, I’m trying to direct you to the method and the way that I analyze a boxing form.
If you are a practitioner of Northern Praying Mantis Boxing, then this article might be of some particular interest to you. The first step I would go through is to review my last article, analyzing your boxing form’s horse stances and basic footwork. See if Mr. Wang Lang’s twelve fighting techniques of “Thrusting Foot Boxing” (Beng Bo) does apply in some way to your boxing form. So let’s go through a few “Rules of Chuan.” This is what I do when I learn a boxing form. After learning all of the movements in this form, I would create a mental image of what I’m practicing. Based on the “Rules of Chuan,” there must be an entire list of fist, palm, and claw strikes. If your instructor did not supply you with a list, then you’ve got to list it down yourself.
“However, I don’t teach either form. I teach a blended form that demonstrates the high points of the 7*, CCK TJMH and TJMH versions, with a TJMH PM energy.
Yeah, I know traditionalists (whatever they are) will roll their eyes and snicker, but I teach what works for me.”
It would be very interesting to see the combined version of Bung Bu that you teach. If you have some time I would really like to see a video demonstration.
