The question of Wah Lum’s Big Mantis came up from time to time. I practice 2 version of Yantai Beng Bu which is known as Da Bengbu because of extensive use of Deng Shan shi as oppose to Xiao Shi that are frequently used in Laying Beng Bu. I also have seen a version of Wah Lum’s Big Mantis which I believe it to be very likely that it is loosely based on the Da Bengbu. This is of course subject to the WL version that I have seen is a “truthful” representation.
To look at the evolutions of Bengbu, I use the following “genetic markers”.
- it has 4 roads.
- The moves before and after each turns should be intact (ie first road turning into the second road.)
- Signature techniques or highlights of the form remain intact. (the elbow sequence of the first road, Ge Zhou sequence of the 2nd rd, elbow seq. at the end of 2nd rd, Gaoji bu seq. of the 3rd, etc… most importantly the waist chop at the end)
- The stance(s) that is most frequently used (ie Dengshan Shi)
These 4 requisites can fairly easily be satisfied by the WL Big Mantis althought openning and closing sections posted some puzzling signals. In the open sequence, it would seem that it is somewhat close to CCK TCPM’s version, which some suggest that it might be one of the oldest known version of Bengbu. In fact the whole first and second road of WL Big Mantis suggested to me that it is highly possible that it relates to TJPM’s Bengbu(s). The more difficult task is to figure out the closing sequence of WL Big Mantis where it seems to have not included the waist chop. There is a rather strange move of a twisted stance and 2 arms formed mantis claws facing each other holding vertically in front of the body; then there is a turning out the twist. I would think this is a “representation” of the waist chop. So in essence the waist chop is still done but in a different manner. Aside from this, there are couple of stylistic “innovations” such a southern one finger pose accompanied with a shout and quite a bit more kicks than the average Bengbu(s) would have. Btw, the eye-poking moves and flipping palms are omitted in the WL Big Mantis. I surmise this is more a stylistic vision matter. It doesn’t IMHO change the fact that it is recognizablely Yantai Bengbu.
In conclusion, it is to the best of my knowledge that WL Big Mantis is indeed Da Bengbu with Wah Lum Tan Tui flavor. It is unique to its own class.
Mantis108
Wow, interesting breakdown. I really enjoy all the discussion on this forum about form origins, stylistic variations, etc. Something akin to an anthropological study of mantis development. Thanks, mantis108 (and everyone else on past threads). 
Mantis 108,
Could you explain: Ge Zhou & Gaoji bu pleeease.
Thanks,
Joe Mantis
Hi SaMantis,
Glad you enjoy the thread. I too find the KFO’s Mantis broad very informative and progressive in bringing many knowledgeable PM folks together. I hope we will enjoy and benefit from all the exchanges on and off the KFO. Thank you for the support.
Hi Joe Mantis,
Thanks for the question.
Ge Zhou in TJPM tradition generally refers to hitting with the outer edge (pinky side) of the forearm. It can be done either horizontally or vertically. I must clarify that this is not Pi (chopping) which is more straight armed. In a sense Ge Zhou has Pi motion but it’s not heavy as Pi. Ge can be think of as block, parry, and chop all in one. I also think that Gun Shou (binding hand) is one technique that make use of Ge zhou as well.
Gaoji Bu is the low sweeping hook kick with the mantis claw for taking down the opponent. BTW, not all PM style perform the Gaoji Bu with the PM claw. It could be sort of a grab instead. It is IMHO one of the fundamental techniques of Mantis.
Hope this helps.
Mantis108
Mantis 108,
Thanks for the info.
Also what is “Deng Shan Shi” & Xiao Shi"?
I think the Kuo Sow (One finger pose) comes from MC’s southern background. This is just a guess though.
The extra kicking could be from Lee Kwan Shan’s influence of his Tam Tui style as well.
Thanks,
Joe Mantis
mantis108
Excellent analysis of the forms but it brings a question to mind. How much can a form change and still be considered the same? In music I believe there is a limited number of consecutive notes that can be the same and yet be a different song. Another form with the same core elements would be a distinctly different form, no?
Hi Joe Mantis,
Thanks for the info. Really appreciate that.
Deng Shan Shi is bow & arrow or Forward stance.
Xiao Shi is minor or kneeling stance. In 7*, this is known as Ru Huan (entering circle).
Hi Hau Lin Laoshi
Great question! 
Now, I am not particulary music savvy. 
I think I would think of it in terms of Jazz. Say you have a base, a drum, and piano. You are going to play “Somewhere Over the Rainbow”, however you and your guys decided to jam with a clarinet and/or even vocal. Now the arrangement can be different and enriched with the extra instrument. Under this set up, would you still consider the tune “Somewhere Over the Rainbow”? Or is it something totally different? Arguably, this is a half full half empty question. I suppose we could rename the tune to reflect the changes (the extra free styling segments of the clarinet) but the fact that original tune serves as the backbone of the new arrangement could not be overlooked. Once the 2 are played side by side, the common root will be clear. Don’t you think?
Warm regards
Mantis108
Thanks Robert again.
Hua Lin, very interesting question which leads me to another:
Can WL be considered another style of PM? Who much Mantis must be in a system for it to be Mantis?
I remember reading an Inside KF and the article was talking about different KF styles in HOng Kong. IT mentioned the “leg detecting” praying mantis style. I understood it to refer to WL.
I know Tainan wrote on another thread about 3 common forms amongst PM styles today…
Discuss amongst ourselves.
The sad part is we will probably never find out about the style of the original wah lum forms taught by LKS. I think he would have taught some original praying mantis forms he learned from the wah lum temple. It is difficult to research the lineage but i think the wah lum today has gone further away from the original mantis from LKS. You would think with LKS teaching in various places and countries there would be more info on it but there isn’t.
What makes a style mantis? I don’t think just having some forms with some mantis hooks here and there and a few other techniques should make it a mantis system. It should be majority mantis and have the mantis theory behind their techniques as well as training methods.
I think someone in wah lum should ask master chan the questions, who was chin yeung’s teacher and are there any of LKS kung fu brothers anywhere? Are there any pure mantis sets?
D-amn, looks like I did it again. Hold on, I think I hear the phone ringing.
mantis108
I’m not real music savvy either but had some friends who played cover songs in a bar I used to frequent. I had other friends who played there one week who tried to create their own songs instead of covering others. Basically their songs where modified versions of popular hits by other bands. That’s what the first band said. They explained to me that certain changes need to be made to ‘legally’ be considered an original work. Things such as a limit to how many consecutive notes can be the same. It didn’t matter what instruments were played.
I’d really like to hear from others on this. How many moves, or sequence of moves, have to be the same for the form to be the same. If I took all the moves from Beng Bu and rearranged them would it still be Beng Bu?
Joe Mantis
More than just ‘how much Mantis’ but what aspects of Mantis need to be incorporated into the system to be considered Mantis?
If you don’t teach the keyword formula but adhere to the principles in practice is it still Mantis?
18elders
“I don’t think just having some forms with some mantis hooks here and there and a few other techniques should make it a mantis system.”
What would be your minimum requirements to be considered a Mantis system? The more I learn of other Mantis styles the more I see of it in WL.
“Are there any pure mantis sets?” What other styles do you see in Big Mantis or Little Mantis?
I still suspect that the higher you go in WL the more Mantis you get. That seems to be the trend as far as I can see. I’ve heard that because of the difficulty in learning Mantis some schools start you off with Long Fist or some generic type of Kung Fu before you learn any Mantis. That could be the case with WL.
I think little mantis is awesome, even being relatively short and repetitious I just love the grab and smack down!!! As for the other forms I have not reached that point. Pure Mantis?? I was under the impression that the 12 techniques of the mantis and techniques from 18 other styles including the monkey footwork is what made up the original mantis system. To perform pure mantis you need four hind legs and forward hooks. You would be a bada$$ no doubt but you’d have a he!! of a time getting a date.
RibHit
fm
Frogman,
There is something interesting about little Mantis.
Like Beng Bu aka Big Mantis, it has another name…
Tie men suan. Iron Door Bolt.
This info comes from MC Chan’s older kung fu brother Chan Wanching.
The interesting part is that this name comes up as a technique in some of the most ancient, or at least what I think is the most ancient, manuscripts of Mantis.
I suspect that the single finger"yee" in this form is or was double sealing hands(shuang feng shou) since the double sealing hands in WL Beng Bu has become single finger"yee"
I remember my sifu telling me it was also called “bolting the iron door” when I learned it. I think it refers to the leg throw in the beginning sequence of the form. Of course, I could very well be wrong. I’m not nearly as well versed in PM terminology as you guys.. By the way, does anyone know the connection between Little Mantis and Big Mantis?
Tainan,
Thanks for the info. Iron Door Bolt, that’s cool. I know that the single finger yee is in several WL forms. I heard that this is a southern flavor, I have also read that this was a Shaolin North/South?? thing. You may be able to confirm this. I am not sure of all the applications for this technique but can see it used for several practical defensive moves. I have used the concept of holding a semi ridged hand that can deflect grab or sense your opponent. I enjoy exploring the many uses of even the simplest techniques. I also like the first grab in the beginning, the under hand and grab pull back. You can make a lot of noise doing little mantis another thing I like about it. Thanks again.
RibHit
fm
Mantis 108, in the version of wl big mantis you saw, was there an eye poke at the beginning of the (fourth?) road done simultaneously with a right toe kick? I think it would be the fourth road. The version I know has this towards the end. In my school, we call it “double dragons fighting over the pearls”…
Lohan Fury
Four years in Northern Mantis and you know Wah Lum Big Mantis?
Mind if I ask how you managed that?
Hua Lin, you read my profile. Right place, right time. It’s that simple.
Eye-poke and Iron Door Bolt
Hi Lohan Fury,
Thanks for the input. Indeed, there is an eye-poke as you described it in the 4th rd. What was I think? lol… BTW, now the you mention it may the couple of retreating “grab” accompanied by the kick near the end of the 3rd Rd was a representation of the flipping palm. So this would mean that key elements are mostly there. Just some are done differently and some are at different places but largely the orders of the moves loosely matches Bengbu.
BTW, does anyone have written Quanpu (manuscript) or know of a Quanpu on Big Mantis? I think it would help the research for those who are interested. I am not asking to acquire one. I am just asking out of curiocity and hope that this type of material exsits for the sake of the Wah Lum Clan.
Hi All,
About the Tie Men Suan (Iron Door Bolt). I regreted that I didn’t have enough time to work on that with Tainan when he visited me. There were already so much to work on. Nevertheless, I got a good glimspe on the IDB aka Little Mantis. I wish I could see the leg throw mentioned by Lohan Fury to verify my thoughts. Anyway, from what I gathered, I am quite curious about the connection of this form and the Qi Shou (7 hands). The sequences of the 2 forms seem loosely matches. The left and right Pu tui in Tie Men Suan seem to be at the place where the 2 Gaoji Bu are found in the Qi Shou as well. If in fact TMS has throws and takedowns, it is very similar at least in theme with the QS. The theme and very well the concept IMHO is about Tie Men Kao Bei (paste to the gate and lean/crash against the wall) in both forms. This concept was prominant close quartered combat wisdom. BTW, the name Iron Door Bolt strongly suggested the gates [of the opponent] are closed and the walls are solid. Of course there are more kicking action going on in the Wah Lum Tie Men Suan. I wonder if it is possible that Tie Men Suan and Qi Shou are aliases of the same form. Could they be variations to each other?
It will be interesting to investigate if at all there is a connnection.
Warm regards
Mantis108
Mantis 108,
I think a simple solution would be to ask Chan Pui.
Unfortuantely as a former WLer I don’t think that I would be well received in order to ask questions.
BUT…
maybe a Mantis “Scholar” who has not done WL and is merely seeking to bring history together… maybe that person would recieve a warm welcome.
HMMM could be an article in MQ???
Maybe Hua Lin could find that info out as well.
I can’t yet see the connection betwenn Tie Men Suan an Qi Shou…
comments anyone.
Lohan Fury
Lucky you. Most have to train for quite some time before getting to that form. There are 2 takedowns near the beginning of the form. I take it you’re referring to the second one where your opponent is tripped over your left leg? Also, PM me anytime. I’m a good guy.
Joe Mantis
I don’t see the connection either but then I didn’t see the similarity between Beng Bu and Big Mantis. Guess you need to be a little more abstract when evaluating them.
mantis108
Sorry but you lost me with your terminology. I’ll have to start taking notes. I think I follow the Gaoji Bu but please explain the Pu Tui. I’m wondering if the hand movements in the two takedowns would resemble pulling a bolt on a large door and locking it down.