Yantai, Wah Lum, Da Beng Bu

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Northern Praying Mantis
21

Tie Men Suan & Qi Shou…Fa-Jing

Hi Mantis 108

With all due respect, I can only see a few movements that can seem to relate in some way. Although the over-all theme of each seems similar. I think WL`s version has alot more to it. I know the 7* and Eight-Step version. Qi Shou may be an entry level form, but it sure is fun. Especially when doing the two-man version, really gets going.

Pong Lai taught me to apply Fa-Jing, really makes a differance. I think ALOT of school`s are not taught this energy. What is your take on Fa-Jing? This is very important to my Shrfu, he really stresses this to me.

Gaoji Bu: WL version hangs leg up after sweep, practiced for years this way. Pong Lai painfully taught me to quickly sweep and bring leg down, to protect from back leg being kicked out. I also execute Gaoji Bu with a arm break and a chop to the head area. My application is similar in both Qi Shou and Beng Bu. What do you think? And if Tainan Mantis is reading, what are your thoughts?

Have a good weekend.

YS

22

YS,
I don’t think the mechanics of fajing are something that are easily explained in writing.
You have to see it and feel it…so …

I don’t think 7 hands of 8 Step and Little Mantis of WL are related except to say that they are both definetly PM.

Actually I thought Little Mantis was a litlle like Luanjie’s First move"5 Strikes Interlocking Smashes"

If WL people see 7 Hands they would take it to be an extremely basic form.
More so than 16 Hands.

While in 8 Step this form is seen as an essential step towards the learning process.

I was speaking to Zuo Hsienfu the other day(holder of the flag in Taiwan).
And he was explaining how important the partner forms 7 Hands and Lipi are for understanding 8 Step’s approach to fighting.

BTW,
For those who have seen the ancient footage of GM Wei and his students doing these and other forms.

He said that the video version is somewhat different from the way GM Wei taught them.

Also, where GM Wei pauses and laughs while performing 2nd Zhai Yao is the spot he left out a few techniques in filming.

But, back to the topic.
GM Wei has made the 8 Step system so that you can fight using 8 Step with only learning a minimal amount of material.
-8 stances
-8 moving steps.

2 man
-7 Hands
-Lipi
-Pai An

Plus
-hsiao fanche
-da fanche
-zhai Yao

Frogman,
I think single finger"yee" is southern influence.

Shuang Feng double sealing is one of the essential hands of PM.
In WL Beng Bu shuang feng was replaced with single finger"yee"

Mantis Siezes the Cicada is called Tang Lang Shuang Feng Hsia /Mantis Double Seal Down in…
-Lipi of 8 Step
-Several forms of Meihua Mantis such as Meihua Lu…

23

more “yee”

I should mention that WL’s single finger"yee" and double seal are very similar and that single finger can be applied the same as double seal.

24

Thank You Guys!

First off, I would like to thank you for all the great input. Second, I would like to also thank Hua Lin Lao Shi and Lohan Fury for their private email offering great help. BTW, it’s quite a nice site you’ve got there Hua Lin Lao Shi. :slight_smile: I will be replying to your emails shortly.

I think the Qishou form would make an excellent thread on its own. I will open another thread on it. Here I will address both Yu Shan and Tainan’s thoughts in the following posts.

I am very impressed with the positive attitude that I have been receiving from the Wah Lum folks so far. You are quite open minded and progressive. This is so far a great Wah Lum discussion thread. Although I am not a member of Wah Lum, your friendships really mean a lot to me. Thank you guys.

Warm regards

Mantis108

25

I agree this is a great thread and I for one have gotten a lot out of it in just seeing some of what I know and some of what is yet to come plus the similarities between the different styles. I think we all can learn more this way. Thanks again to everyone for the insight.

RibHit
fm

26

Hi Hua Lin Lao Shi

Sorry but you lost me with your terminology. I’ll have to start taking notes. I think I follow the Gaoji Bu but please explain the Pu Tui. I’m wondering if the hand movements in the two takedowns would resemble pulling a bolt on a large door and locking it down.

I think the takedowns that you are talking about are the pu tui that I am referring to. Unfortunately, I wasn’t able to download your clip about the Little Mantis on your site. Pu tui is when the weight is shifted all the way to the rear leg and you go low close to the ground with the front leg extended straight. If I remember correctly this is done after the punch in the horse stance. Is this close or am I way off?

Hi Yu Shan

<<<With all due respect, I can only see a few movements that can seem to relate in some way. Although the over-all theme of each seems similar. I think WL`s version has alot more to it. I know the 7* and Eight-Step version. Qi Shou may be an entry level form, but it sure is fun. Especially when doing the two-man version, really gets going.>>>

I agreed it is loosely based and Little Mantis does have a lot more to it. 7 hands is really my pet threoy that it is perhaps the fundamental even the mother of a few different forms.

TJPM Luanjie
CCK TCPM Lanjie and Jiegun (swiftly follow).
WL Tie Men Suan aka Little Mentis [admittedly this is by a long shot]

So we have about 4 1/4 - 5 forms that are contain similar sequences, theme, concepts, etc… now is there possibly a connect between them besides that fact that they are mantis forms? That’s my question. There might not be and I would be happy if someone prove me wrong. So I don’t go on to a wild goose chase. But for the time being these forms suggested to me it is more than just a coincidence meaning the old masters create forms from a source of inspiration which in this case IMHO was the Qishou. Of course, Luanjie is so sophisticated that it is more a highlights of Bazhou to me.

<<<Pong Lai taught me to apply Fa-Jing, really makes a differance. I think ALOT of school`s are not taught this energy. What is your take on Fa-Jing? This is very important to my Shrfu, he really stresses this to me.>>>

I think that’s the beauty of simple forms. It gives focus to really work on essential stuff such as Fa-jing. I am not sure how Ponglai shows this but the way Tainan showed me was with the Kao Da method. It is very comprehensive and easily to learn and train with his method. This shows how strong the teaching ability of Tainan is. I also benefited from his method that I further developed training the scissors kick takedown with the Kao Da method.

Fa-Jing is IMHO the 4th dimension of Kung Fu. So timing is equally important in the equation. I think a lot of people think of Fajing in terms of the sudden burst of enegry while doing solo forms. While it is a great expression of Fajing, it is not truely refined until it is being worked through with 2 men practice. So Shrfu Shr and his students including Tainan and Ponglai and his grandstudents have tremendous advantage in this area of practice.

<<<Gaoji Bu: WL version hangs leg up after sweep, practiced for years this way. Pong Lai painfully taught me to quickly sweep and bring leg down, to protect from back leg being kicked out. I also execute Gaoji Bu with a arm break and a chop to the head area. My application is similar in both Qi Shou and Beng Bu. What do you think? And if Tainan Mantis is reading, what are your thoughts?>>>

I think the hanging the leg up is more for performing purposes and to show the “leg strength” and/or follow through action. If overdone, it could lead to bad habit. If you can secure the hands, thus unbalanced the opponent before executing the sweep, the danger of get your rear leg being kick out is very low. Unless of course, he knows the counter, and fajing counter for that matter, then you are toasted. lol… :smiley: The WL way seem to have a deep “Diao Shou” action going on with the sweep. I take it that it meant to accomplish the unbalancing first. I believe if it is well explained in the application it should not be too much of a concern. After all, Kung Fu is about awareness. If the stylists are aware of the strength and weakness of a move, it should not present any problem to the stylists. Tainan showed me the same way you do it. It’s great. :slight_smile:

Warm regards

Mantis108

27

Hi Tainan,

<<<I don’t think the mechanics of fajing are something that are easily explained in writing.>>>

Yes and no. I think you, Ponglai and some others have done a great job in make this difficult task seems much more easier and approachable even in written format. So don’t sell yourself short. :wink:

<<<You have to see it and feel it…so …>>>

Whole heartedly agreed.

<<<I don’t think 7 hands of 8 Step and Little Mantis of WL are related except to say that they are both definetly PM.

Actually I thought Little Mantis was a litlle like Luanjie’s First move"5 Strikes Interlocking Smashes">>>

You know I strongly agreed but where would Luanjie came from. I mean what would be the first inspiration came from?

<<<If WL people see 7 Hands they would take it to be an extremely basic form.
More so than 16 Hands.>>>

Yes, indeed 7 hands seems extremely basic. But it is definitely more than meets the eyes. I love this form despite the fact that this is not a CCK TCPM form, yet it blends amazingly well with TCPM applications. If I were to do a seminar on mantis figthing strategy this would be the form that I would show.

<<<While in 8 Step this form is seen as an essential step towards the learning process.>>>

I couldn’t have agreed more although I am coming from a TCPM perspective.

<<<I was speaking to Zuo Hsienfu the other day(holder of the flag in Taiwan).
And he was explaining how important the partner forms 7 Hands and Lipi are for understanding 8 Step’s approach to fighting.

BTW,
For those who have seen the ancient footage of GM Wei and his students doing these and other forms.

He said that the video version is somewhat different from the way GM Wei taught them.

Also, where GM Wei pauses and laughs while performing 2nd Zhai Yao is the spot he left out a few techniques in filming.>>>

Great info. Thanks

<<<But, back to the topic.
GM Wei has made the 8 Step system so that you can fight using 8 Step with only learning a minimal amount of material.
-8 stances
-8 moving steps.

2 man
-7 Hands
-Lipi
-Pai An

Plus
-hsiao fanche
-da fanche
-zhai Yao>>>

That’s minimal amount. :confused: :smiley: lol… sorry, can’t help it. That takes a lifetime to achieve, man! Seriously, I hear you and I feel the same way.

<<<Frogman,
I think single finger"yee" is southern influence.

Shuang Feng double sealing is one of the essential hands of PM.
In WL Beng Bu shuang feng was replaced with single finger"yee"

Mantis Siezes the Cicada is called Tang Lang Shuang Feng Hsia /Mantis Double Seal Down in…
-Lipi of 8 Step
-Several forms of Meihua Mantis such as Meihua Lu>>>

I often wonder about Tanglang Shuangfeng Hisa. It great to know thanks.

Warmest regards

Mantis108

28

7 hands

7 hands is also one of my favs, yes it is short and basic but nice techniques. Allows you to apply proper body movement.
Was lucky to have Master Shr teach me

29

Mantis108,
I think the inspiration of Luanjie comes from the 7th hard technique of Mantis.

Later I will do a write up on this when I have time.

BTW,
I don’t like to teach 7 Hands to beginners because there are too many nuances to the movement that are hard to follow.

30

mantis108

I think the takedowns that you are talking about are the pu tui that I am referring to. Unfortunately, I wasn’t able to download your clip about the Little Mantis on your site. Pu tui is when the weight is shifted all the way to the rear leg and you go low close to the ground with the front leg extended straight. If I remember correctly this is done after the punch in the horse stance. Is this close or am I way off?

You are correct but I would think that Pu Tui would be some type of kick. That move would be Die Bok Ma in WL although there might be a name for the actual takedown. For some reason that clip doesn’t seem to play for most people. Don’t know why since the same camera was used for all 3 videos.

31

Big Mantis?

Hi all,

I was wondering if Master Chan teaches this form as Big Mantis or does he call it Beng Bu? My shifu, Frank Paolillo, was one of his earliest students from Boston and recieved his teacher’s certificate from Master Chan. Although he is no longer affliliated with Wah Lum, he keeps in regular contact with Master Chan and has a good relationship with him.

Shifu was taught a form called Beng Bu and I was wondering maybe in Master Chan’s earlier days he called Big Mantis Beng Bu. Has anyone else here studied with Master Chan in his early days before he built the temple in Tampa?

I have to clarify that I don’t practice Wah Lum. I am learning Chen Tai Chi and Bagua from Shifu and was thinking of learning the form Beng Bu.

Thanks!!!

32

beng bu

it was called beng bu in the early days and then MC changed it to big mantis although in the student hand book the chinese characters for the form say beng bu.
I went to china with your shrfu (frank) in 93, he was my first shrfu’s teacher(arthur).

33

Been corresponding with a student under Shrfu Tom Turcotte, a former patriarch of WL. He says the same, BM was called BB in old days. ****, guess I`m going to dust off the cobwebs from this Big Mantis, and really give it a good look!

Hua Lin

Wah Lum uses Cantonese terminology, people here are using Mandarin…far as I can tell. :slight_smile:

34

yu shan
You are correct. Cantonese, Mandarin or English. I’ll take what I can get and figure it all out later. As you know I don’t wait around for things to get handed to me because I don’t expect to live that long.

TaiChiFist
I’ve been in Wah Lum since 1990 and it’s been Big Mantis as far as I can remember. We use a mix of Chinese and English for the form names. Some are known by the Chinese name and others only by the English name.

Anyone have a clue as to the name of the WL version of Luan Jie?

35

inconsistency

The Wah Lum Style first off, has no real documentation. This is very important in the MA world. If a style has any creditability, there would be serious documentation. Not much at all can be found on Wah Lum. Very curious about the link between Mantis and this WL Temple…and all the Southern (CLF) & (HG) influence. And the Tan Tui. If you can give us some details or information, please prove me wrong. Thank you.

36

I may be wrong but as I understand it there was a Northern and Southern WL Temple. The northern Temple was completely destroyed. I believe that’s where LKS hid out and learned the Mantis style. Most likely he decided not to return to the Escort service and travelled to the sourthern Temple to live out his life in peace. The southern WL Temple survived until the cultural revolution when it was disguised as a library (I think) to avoid destruction. It was re-discovered in 1997/98. MC was hoping to find some records of LKS at the Temple during the 1998 China trip but I don’t believe he found anything. The Temple is currently being restored to it’s original design.

37

This story has suspicion written all over it. Not to discredit you, Hua Lin Laoshi, but this story seems to change every few years. If WL`s LKS was so great, there should be documentation.

In defense of Hua Lin Laoshi, this Shifu has a Lion`s Heart and means well for the MA World and people in general… juuuss wish he would come train with us in Tampa. :slight_smile:

38

Also want to hear about the other student’s of LKS. Where are they?
Don’t they train and have students.

39

yu shan
“If WL`s LKS was so great, there should be documentation.”
I think this is part of the problem. First, I speak for myself and not as a WL historian or official representative. I want to make that clear in case I say something ‘unapproved’.

I think LKS was just one of the many professional escorts of his day and not some great historical hero. He was good enough to take out a few of the fiercest bandits of the time but smart enough to hide out at a monestary when the others were looking to kill him. If he had stuck around and managed to kill them all he probably would have been a widely recognized hero.

Also, being a hired killer he may have kept a low profile and chose not to reveal much of his past to his students or others. He had to bail out of Vietnam because he killed someone there. And he was older then. How much killing did he do in his youth?

If it wasn’t for MC’s promotion of WL in the States I think it would have faded away into obscurity by now. LKS created WL and apparently MC is the only one to have done something with what he learned. The rest either don’t care or took what they knew to the grave.

BTW, the story I told was what I’ve pieced together myself and not told to me by anyone in WL. I don’t know what you were told but the discovery of the southern WL Temple leads me to believe that was LKS’s connection to Canton.

40

I think that’s the southern shaolin temple you mean.

btw yu shan not all great fighters or styles have much documentation.There’s different versions of the hung fist being brought to light every minute (northern and southern hung versions). To tell the truth in my opinion I beleive documentation has only become very improtant the last couple of years and I doubt it was something much to be cared about back in the day like the later qing dynasty and early pre communist era when you had everything going haywire. Now lineage however is tottally different. Well in my view I think that lks wasn’t looking to build a name but just trying to get by.

Like hl mentioned the’re were lot’s of good escorts in those days who didn’t become famous enough to be written down.