I got HK 7 star bung bo,
How does it compare to mainland 7 star bung bo? I am guessing the movement will be different (ie power generation, stance depth, etc.) but is the sequence of movements different or is it a totally different set like HK/mainland WASP?
How does it differ to the pong lai bung bo?
Can of worms
holy moly here it comes. Just kidding, You will find little differences in all of the styles. However one thing is certain, bung bu is an amazing change in the approach to CMA.
research…
Lol darkfist - I almost knew that you would be one of the first guys to reply…what is it about bung bo posts that draws you in so much 
Anyway…If you search around the foum you will find multiple posts with videos and discussion of lineage differences, applications and much more.
I know for a fact that myself and darkfist have started more than 2 threads on the subject.
craig
pong lai beng bu
Now available, master shr beng bu dvd on sale. Recorded 20 years ago in taiwan.
The sequence of moves is similar, you would recognize it immediately as bong bo, however there are differences in the way the form moves. A lot more emphasis on circular movement and vivid footwork. Without showing you the form, its would be very hard to describe the differences move by move.
There are additional moves tho, so its not like an enhanced hk version, the first row is almost exactly the same, except for a stealing the peach in the beginning and an extra go lou cai and bang before the rising punch. Not going to go into the rest because it would take a while to describe.
I’ve seen a copy of that vid by master shr, good stuff. need get me a copy.
Bengbu
First and foremost, all my usual caveats apply.
In the boxing manuscript “Boxing, Staff, and Spear Fencing Manual” dated 1842 Liang Xue Xiang listed 3 routines (Bengbu, Luanjie and Fenshen Bazhou) - the so-called mother forms. The characters used for Bengbu are Crash and Fill. This is different from most of the names (ie Crushing Step, etc) used in modern days. Most of the popular versions of Bengbu are fairly similar and can be categorically designated as Yantai Bengbu because it was first popularized in Yantai City, Shandong. From Yantai, it eventually step (pun intended) into the international stage via Hong Kong. BTW, the popularity of this form and the information from Liang’s manuscript might have inspired the adage “Bengbu Dao Bazhou Shen Xian Ye Nan Tiao” (From Crash and Fill to Eight Elbows even the Gods and the immortals find it hard to escape). We can see the importance of this form. Bengbu is important in the sense that it trains a fast paced linear continuous forward pressure with advancing footwork; while Bazhou is more about 8 different attributes (Yinyang Gangrou Xushi Jintui) which make it more intricate.
The Sevenstar version and most of the Greater Meihwa Line versions of Bengbu are Yantai Bengbu. Ponglai’s version technically is Mimen which could be grouped under the GML as well. It is of note that all versions of Yantai Bengbu outside of Mainland (ie HK and Taiwan) as far as I am aware can be done with and would have a Ling (partnered side). This is not necessarily the case with the lines remained in the Mainland. This, I believe, is the innovation that Sifu Darkfist alluded to.
Ponglai version of Bengbu IMHO has some unique features such as Pai Da, Cun Jing, and emphasize on Shuai Lu Liang Fen beside being extremely close quartered even by Tanglang’s standard. Also the use of key drills such as Wei Gua Shou (outer hanging punch) to help develop the fighting skill using all techniques in the form really makes the Ponglai version outstanding IME. But then I am baised. 
Hope this helps.
Mantis108
so, when you gonna switch???
jus kiddin.
I’ve had two ‘holy grails’ in the last 6 years…the short term being Bung Bu. the long term being Mimen in general. (that’s gonna take the rest of my life)
I bought Sifu Funk’s tape almost 6 years ago and managed to get through first road of it teaching myself.
Over the past 6 years I’ve seen several versions of Bung Bu played out. Most have been nice enough…some pretty horrible.
I’m not knocking anyone else’s version of it…but, I’m just glad I’ve ended up with the set I did.
now, I’ll just be glad I can get back to playing it…
Most have been nice enough…some pretty horrible.
I have to say that I dont like the over emphasized look of the ‘lower leg sprouting’ as some people play it.
Im HK lineage so its only a quick 7* step in the form
craig
good synopsis
Mantis 108 posts another amazing synopsis for the subject of tang lang history. thanks your additions add to my linear knowledge (mostly application with the craving for history lessons) all in good time.
Actually Monkey you are the first to notice my addiction to this set.
It seems to me that the Inventor touched the face of the relentless attack very early in his composition. This calls for my deepest respect. From the perspective of a man who dwells on the theory and actual use of the style in hand to hand as well.
Bung Bu and Mantis changed the face of CMA in my view. It stood up and said “I will no longer defend myself” “i will now actively destroy my enemies before they can act”
I am no where near the authority on history as Mantis 108, or My Master or His. However i can tell you that this set opened a new era in fighting out of the Middle Kingdom and now to the face of the world.
The principles behind the infamous Bung BU play a part in all my martial training
including the ancient and fierce Baji Quan. i think like the relentless mantis in all my arts.
Perhaps the jar lesson that sickened so many could serve a purpose after all, it shows the never ending tenacity of the mantis and its will to fight to the last drop of blood never resting until the end of the conflict.
Hi Robert,
" Ponglai’s version technically is Mimen…"
This might mislead people into thinking the form was taught by Zhang Dekuie, which it was not. Though the motion of my shifu on video doing this form is somewhat like the so called Mimen.
It is such a raraely seen thing, how my Shiye did his PM.
I have seen several examples of it from my family.
Besides my shifu there are others who knew zhang and learned from my shifu while my shifu was still training with Zhang.
My elder who actually trained with Zhang taught me his way of movement. Imagine my surprise when I noticed that his style of motion was almost a clone of Mantis108.
The same type of jumping to different angles that you see in TJPM. BTW, this type of angled striking is not what is comonly seen in 8 step and 7*.
It is still there but the emphasis is different.
“all techniques in the form really makes the Ponglai version outstanding IME. But then I am baised. ;)”
The Pong Lai version you refer is what is taught in the states. But my shifu also teaches the TJPM version. Different people are taught differently.
Before I left Taiwan I learned the Miehua version.
It is different from the 7* version.
While the 7* version has more linear motion and straight punches, the miehua version has fewer straight punches.
The Mie hua version only has 2 straight punches. And just as few times does the hill climbing stance appear.
It is more like the forms Luanjie and Mantis hands.
Even though the versions are all different many of the same principles are the same.
In fact, training in these three versions has giving me the opinion of what are the important aspects of Mantis.
eg, the moves of the 2nd road of Mie Hua Beng bu has a strong correlation to the short strike method of 8 elbows. While the 7* version of this section is the same, but attacking the opponent at a bit more of a distance makes the moves appear differently.
Later, I will post some comparitive footage.
18 Elders said he will let me do apps on him so that would be soemthing to compare to other folk’s versions.
Kevin
I learned it with more lifting than just moving to a 7 star step. The move is Chao Tui(Lift/Carry/Pickup Leg), a sweep. We used to get yelled at most severely for not lifting.
N.
I learned it with more lifting than just moving to a 7 star step. The move is Chao Tui(Lift/Carry/Pickup Leg), a sweep. We used to get yelled at most severely for not lifting.
From the videos I have seen I can imagine. It should in theory be a big sweep like motion seen as it is ‘lower leg sprouting’. Although the sweep is simply one application to that movement. Another is simply to apply a 7* step onto the shin/foot of the opponent and strike with a mantis claw to the eyes/throat.
Btw people. I was sparring with a guy last night and was trying to pull off this movement. Does anyone find it difficult to floor someone with this move. Even if I sweep hard and claw in the opposite direction, I never get any better than just slightly messing up their balence. I have never been able to floor them as such.
craig
craig, just my thoughts here…
GIVEN: both people in left leads, could be right lead too
I would enter by way of grabbing the lead hand and plucking hard to bring as much of their weight forward onto the foot you are sweeping. if you don’t, they will just empty that leg and retreat. optimally, hang on to that arm through the follow through of the foot action and the counter movement of your arm on the upper body. also, knock the crap out of them w/ the right hand as you step fwd w/ the lead leg before the actual sweep. sweeps w/o proper set up rarely work.
alternately: if you need to enter w/ both hands on one are you could strike the head w/ the right elbow as you coil onto the lead leg before the chop w/ arm.
hmmm, not sure that’s making sense.
this seems to be an emphasized movement in a lot of our sets…or maybe, I’m emphasizing it in my training and teaching because I likes it lots…makes people go ‘crunch’ ;)
It is big in the form, but smaller in application. The form shows you the angling details, and the direction of force necessary to make it work. The form shows it bigger to make it more obvious, and to ensure that the person develops the proper basic body mechanics.
In our line, the primary and classical application is the sweep.
It can be difficult if your details are a little off.
Set up and hide the sweep with cross grab high line attack with advancing footwork to force his other hand up.
Before he makes solid contact, do an angular steal step and chao in the direction of the step.
Your center of balance during all this needs to be slightly forward.
Use muscles of the hip joint to generate the lifting force. It is more of hip contraction and less of quadriceps and lower leg extension.
Keep his weight on his lead leg.
Instead of hard swinging with the arm, thread it through fast and relaxed, then allow the force to appear suddenly. I prefer the open palm method as in Flying Goose Palm rather than the mantis claw method. I go deep with it, pressuring with the arm, and can follow up with neck breaker take down.
Go deep. Don’t think just in terms of connecting with foot and hand. Deeper is better for throws.
Also, what Oso said.
N.
Ah, over a year off the forum and I return for a Bung Bo discussion, sweet!
Good to see both active newcomers and a few old faces around here (Oso, Mantis108, Kevin B). I think the politics and flame wars of a few years ago were worse, and drove off some very good contributors.
That being said, for my two cents I’d love to spend some time with other mantis players in demonstrating our differences hands on. One of these days I’ll get back out of my shell and go visiting again.
_J
- Use muscles of the hip joint to generate the lifting force. It is more of hip contraction and less of quadriceps and lower leg extension.
good point…i feel like there’s a subtle sink and a general contraction inward to the groin at the exact moment of the issue of power…keeps you from overextending the sweeping leg and your balance.
JJMantis: i’m sure I’ve asked before but I’ve forgotten: where in VA? I was born in Richmond and get back every once in a while.
We used to get yelled at if we didn’t do the sink 
N.
lol, yea… I still remember my first teacher telling me I should quit and go do karate…I think he did that just to pizz me off and train harder.
so, besides ‘lower leg sprouting’ (which is kind of obscene sounding ) what’s the chinese term for the throw here?
Not sure, I thought the term was 7* leg sprouting kick 
Anyways cheers guys for the replies. I will post back on sunday and share my experiences. Btw - If I was going to sweep with my left leg, is it better to lead right or lead left before I execute the sweep. If im leading right then I have the ability to create more power due to body mechanics, but then if I lead left I will have less chance of telegraphing it…
Whats your thoughts?
craig