Hi Mantiscool,
Funny you should call it a squatting stance. We usually refer to it as the kneeling stance. 
YM
Hi! Young Mantis
I dont know the exact wordings but I think kneeling is not very correct either! Maybe, it is half squat and half kneel! 
MC
yu shan/18 elders,
I am confused. If all traditional mantis (or I should say mantis that does not have the influence of other styles) are taught as two-person sets, then how can there be any confusion over apps? Also, I noticed somewhere in this thread one of you suggested that Master Shr has additional apps for certain moves, I donāt understand how that can be. Now I usually seem to come across as an ass, and I donā't mean to. If there is more than one app to a two person form, whatās the ārealā way. Is there a ārealā way. Also, do you learn alternate appās for the same movement in different forms? Like in wl some moves are repeated throughout the curriculum.
Re: Bung Bo apps
Originally posted by Hua Lin Laoshi
ā¦
At the end of the first run you turn and execute a right kick behind the left leg. First off, anyone have a name for this kick?
Iāve heard it called the āLeg-Sproutingā kick in, I think it was, Lee Kam Wingās 2nd book.
Originally posted by WhiteMonkey
[B]Thanks shirkers1, but thats not the move, thats move #2 .
The move after that with the left palm strike,#3, with the hoping step, before move #4, the forward right hand punch?
How do you use it ?
Is it a full move or just a transitional move?
What is your target when used?
Why the step? [/B]
One application I have used is where the palm-heel is used to attack the nose or the eye, and follow QUICKLY with the next movement in the form, which is a right lunge-punch whether the palm strike was blocked or not.
Or, the left-palm can be used to forcefully āmushā your opponents head back, to create some distance between your fist and his head (and distract), and strike QUICKLY with the next movement in the form, the right straight punch.
In the applications listed above, the left palm strike is more of a āfakeā or ādistractionā than a show-stopper. Kind of like a western boxerās āone-twoā punch, with the āoneā being the left palm strike, and the ātwoā being the right straight punch. Also, by āfakeā, I donāt mean it isnāt supposed to hit itās target hard, just that it isnāt the MAIN strike in the combination your throwing. In Bung-Bo (HK 7*), you still have (potentially) 2 straight punches, one knee strike, 1 elbow strike, and a back-fist to throw. But to respond to your question, Iāll only speak on movements #3 (palm strike) and #4 (straight/lunge punch).
Iād like to add that using this combination as listed above, you could either throw the left palm strike with the left foot forward, then ālungeā forward with the right leg as you throw the right lunge-punch (just like the form), or after the left palm strike use the left āMonkey Stepā (left forward shuffle) while you throw the right straight punch, OR use no step AT ALL when throwing the left palm strike and the right straight punch.
In my opinion, the main thing with these two movements in Bung Bo, used as listed above, is that the palm strike and fist strike are thrown out consecutively. Two strikes in succession, as opposed to the āYou strike then I block, then I strike and you block, then you strike then I blockā¦ā. Not that there is anything wrong with that approach to this particular technique. In the HK 7* 2-Man version of this form, it is just like that (you strike then I blockā¦). Some PM techniques canāt be thrown consecutively like this one, although I canāt think of any right now.
Of course, the form should be done the way you learned it. The apps can be experimented with a little more than the forms.
Other apps posted by mantids on this thread I agree with.
P.S.: I canāt BELIEVE I had soo much of nuthin to say about these two movements.
Corrections
Hi Young Mantis,
you are right. I donĀ“t figured it out exactly enough, so it was misunderstandable. Good you cleared that.
Mantisben:
Like I mentioned it before, the kick is called in Cantonese āBui Tek Maā
(bei ti ma).
The sprouting kick is called āJau Toiā (jiu tui in Mandarin) and is a kind of sweep. See Bang Bo the second last road, right before the jump with the eye plucking hand movement!
Originally posted by MantisCool
[B]Hi! Young Mantis
I dont know the exact wordings but I think kneeling is not very correct either! Maybe, it is half squat and half kneel!
MC [/B]
Oh, I hope you understand I was not trying to say kneeling is a better word than squatting. I was actually trying to say how similar they are.
YM
Here it is again in slow motion (luckily itās a training tape).
So I take it nobody here plays the set this way?
I was just wondering, since he doesnāt show apps or ling, if there was a different application for this move. Seems to me there could be a different interpretation of this section.
Since this person is respected in the Mainland Mantis community I donāt think the differences can be shrugged off.
Personally, and obviously Iām no expert, I donāt think itās a kick but rather a stepping motion used to rapidly move in and retreat (finishing the attack) while maintaing balance. Itās a modification of the full cross step/stance but quicker since the foot never touches ground. In this case the arm is grabbed, the eyes attacked (look closely) then opponent is wrenched off balance while breaking the arm.
One reason I donāt buy the jump behind you is why would anyone do that? Why go from one side to the other? Especially if you could go halfway and have his undefended back? Looks nice in the 2-man but not realistic IMHO.
Once upon a time in Chinaā¦
Hi Hualin,
The move in question is a counter to the opponentās intent to grab your hair/head while making a pass. This is pretty much across the board regardless of style that have this form as far as I am aware. Now if there is a superb duper secret family Bengbu that I have not seen before, I would love to see it and learn the apps as well.
The key of the move is aganist someone who turns the table on me using Zhan Zhuan Teng Nuo. Hair/head grabbing is a big thing in Mantis. There is an entire section in older Quanpu just devouted to this type of techniques. Old Masters of Mantis knew the effectiveness of this, they trian both the apps and counters to it. Why is it so effect? Because once upon a time in China, people either bundled their hair or briaded their hair. Your head simply follows where your hair goes. This is a great handle like the neck, triceps, biceps, lats, etcā¦ It is not some ultra secretive stuff even cavemen and cat fights in the bar use this instinctively. Most people donāt use that anymore is because nowaday long hair is no longer a fashionable or functional thing and we have lost much of our instinct that we have to relearn it. The greatest benefit of hair grab especially from behind is that itās just as effective as a clinch but not as crude as a clinch (at least in appearance). One might call it head trapping (immobilizing). This makes it ideal for an art like mantis.
Now of course, if you make the pass (not wanting to hair grab) and the other guy is just stand there like an idiot then by all means do whatever you see fit. You can punch and kick the living day lights out of him or rear bear hug him and drop his head on the floor WWF style. Mantis simply offers a mean through this move in the Bengbu form for your consideration to deal with such a pass with a body check or stick and follow through.
Just some thoughts to share with you.
Mantis108
This is also called āgrab the mulletā
Got to love the guys who keep the 80ās hair styles going
Just a thought,..
I am a firm believer in the idea that many (ok,..most) forms contain movements to deal with not just a single, but multiple attackers. The movements are guide-lines for real world usage and not just a set of techniques that you run together with all the time.
I see a great value in the ling side of forms, but no as great a value in using them to train the first side. To me, their value stands in what they do unto themselves (stand-alone) rather than what they do for the parent form.
HLL, as for as the section you posted is concerned; to me, the turning /block/kick/insert your own iterpretation, movement is more about the concept of CYA than any specific ling movement.
Best Wishes to everyone for a great new Year BTW!
~BTL
(crawls back under his rock)
another spin on thisā¦
Hua Lin Laoshi
You will have to excuse my lack of Chinese terminology it is the only void in my training in PL. And Im going to back up a bit in the form on a move that is not getting much attention so far. After I hopefully block the punch and knee attack we follow up with an elbow strike downward to the shoulder/arm, this can hurt in itself. If the form is able to continue, my Shifu follows with this backfist. Sometimes my Shifu uses a sort of "rolling" backfist and he uses it as a takedown sort of. He basically crashes thru my face with the backfist as a takedown... this happens when I fail to get my right hand up to block. If I get the block off on the powerful backfist with my right hand/arm, I attack his armpit with a tigerclaw (left hand), then as fast as I can, gain control of arm with both hands and yank like h e l l in a sort of rowing motion. Now this ling side guy attacking the armpit or tricep muscle yanking the bung lu side guys arm off, I literally pull him face first into the pavement. This is an important move for the ling side. By using this rowing arm drag down, can end the form right there. If the bung lu side is able to continue and not get taken down by his arm, as Im pulling down Im also jumping by either slapping him in the face or pop him in the back of head ( replace with hair grab or elbow). As I jump by, I hug if not brush as close to him as I can. Bung side turns head in my direction tries to block my slap with his right hand, then he delivers the kick and strike to face/throat/stones. I would MUCH rather show this in person, then you can see how effective these few movements of BOTH the Bung side and the ling side. Im telling you man, the way Shr ZhengZhong teaches his two man forms are not dance like. And the form can be ended abruptly by either side. If you make it to Ohio, Id really enjoy going over this with you. And sorry if I carried this out too far, Im a hands on, not type on!
mantis108
Thanks for the historical perspective on the move. I was unaware that there was a head grab there and, unfortunately for me, I donāt see the move defending against the head grab. The rear kick could be a defense against a kick to back of knee collapsing the leg but I believe if the opponent is positioned correctly the hands have no effect. The only way it works is with an incorrect positioning by the opponent. Just my opinion.
And I do like head grabs. Last guy I took down was with a head grab.
So you donāt see any difference in application with the variation of hands in this version?
yu shan
You and me both on the Chinese terminology. This has been bugging me for some time.
āas Im pulling down Im also jumping by either slapping him in the face or pop him in the back of headā
Iāve seen John do this.
āBung side turns head in my direction tries to block my slap with his right handā
Hereās where I see a problem. That, to me, is an incorrect response (at least not something I would do). You will be hit before you can turn far enough to block (turning where he will be rather than where he is). Especially if the hit is to the face as he jumps by.
I also see the kick and hand strike as being mutually exclusive. Being in range for the hand strike puts you out of range for the kick. Guess Iāll just have to go over this.
BTW, as Iāve mentioned before I havenāt learned Big Mantis or Bung Bo yet but theyāre currently in the works.
If I can make it out to Ohio Iāll hopefully have at least Big Mantis, which does the move same as Pong Lai, by then.
Re: another spin on thisā¦
How about ifā¦
Originally posted by yu shan
[B]Hua Lin Laoshi
After I hopefully block the punch and knee attack we follow up with an elbow strike downward to the shoulder/arm, this can hurt in itself. If the form is able to continue, my Shifu follows with this backfist. Sometimes my Shifu uses a sort of ārollingā backfist and he uses it as a takedown sort of. He basically crashes thru my face with the backfist as a takedownā¦ this happens when I fail to get my right hand up to block. If I get the block off on the powerful backfist with my right hand/arm, I attack his armpit with a tigerclaw (left hand), then as fast as I can, gain control of arm with both hands and yank like h e l l in a sort of rowing motion. Now this ling side guy attacking the armpit or tricep muscle yanking the bung lu side guys arm off, I literally pull him face first into the pavement. [/B]
ā¦at this point the bung lu side is in half kneeling with a rolling backfist that was caught by the ling side with a right hand block/grab followed by a left hand grab to the tricep. Now the ling side pulls to his right and tries to sweep the bung luās front foot with his right leg. The bung luās leg motion backwards can be a counter to the leg sweep (getting it out of the way). The arm movements can be peeling the ling sideās grab off of your arm. Now the bung lu side ends in the horse stance with a right side hammerfist strike to the ling sideās body. If bung lu side positions his right leg far enough behind the ling side person, you can use it as a takedown. Now add some fajing to it.
Now we used it in a different manner against the same person.
This is just my 2 cents worth from my āGo and figure it out yourself daysā.
Everyone have a wonderful day.
Oved
tanglang69:D
Hi Hualin
You are most welcome, my friend.
One of the characteristics of Tanglang is faking high and hit low or vice versa. Sometimes it attacks the front but end up striking the opponent at the back. Most of the time, itās the opponent falls into the trap that you set up for him. I think you would remember the Xian Zhua application clips that I shared before. Little details changed means different things. Thatās why IMHO Tanglang is a very beautiful art.
Honestly, the kick to either block or take out the knee as an alternate app is IMHO very low percentage. I mean sure Jet Li or Tony Jaa (the Ong Bak guy) might be able to do in a controlled environment. But average MA Joe Dough like me arenāt going to be able to pull it off. 
Hereās where I see a problem. That, to me, is an incorrect response (at least not something I would do). You will be hit before you can turn far enough to block (turning where he will be rather than where he is). Especially if the hit is to the face as he jumps by.
Well, you see thatās where ergonormically correct posture doesnāt necessary means aesthetically pleasing. You would actually be tilting slightly forward with your body while standing on the one leg (left). This way your butt is naturally up. Thatās where the Buttocks elbow comes in. It is all natural and ergonormically correct but looks kind of odd. The right leg also follows the tilt of the body to prop up aiding the hip check as a trip. So you would get the passing guy either way. Now I was literally bummed and landed squarely on my butt by a almost 200 lbs Tainan as I was passing through him the first time he showed me this app. BTW, I weighted about 120 lbs. So float like a butterfly and sting like a bee doesnāt always work. lolā¦ The hands are there for added protection mostly. So you see this is neutralize and attack at the same time and is very natural. But the posture does look a bit akward and not that elegant. Classic Tanglang is mostly ergonormically correct but not necessarily aesthetically pleasing.
Warm regards
Mantis108
Terminology For A Novice
Hi All
I must say this is one great forum for info on our wonderful art, keep up the good work.
Now Iām new to this, my first post so if its in the wrong place I appologise.
Iāve only been training for about 18 months and thought its about time to get the info I have down on paper so its not forgotten.
So Iāll start at the beginning with Bung Bo.
Iām looking for some info on the Chinese translation of some of the moves from Bung Bo, Ill list then below.
Move 1 : The Palm Block
Move 4 : The Palm Strike
Move 6 : The Leg Knee Strike with Hand Grab and Punch.
Move 7 : The Elbow Strike.
That should do me for now, thereās loads more but hopefully youāll let me ask about those later.
Many thanks in advance for you help.
Its an honour to be able to speak with such experiance practitioners from around the world.
Sorry guys also meant to say that Iāve looked in the Terminology aboe and cant seem to marry up the descriptions with the Chinese.
Cheers 
Got them all sorted now apart from the elbow.
LKWās book only states a āRight Elbow Strikeā
I know elbow is Zhou but dont know what would go with that to make the full description.
Any help would be much appreciated.
Many thanks in advance.
JM
Die Zhou
JadeMantis,
The term is Die Zhou , literally translated āpile upā elbow.
To learn the Chinese for the techniques you use is indeed an important step in your mastery of the art. I encourage you to continue your studies.
A good book/recording of the Pinyin method of spelling and pronouncing the Mandarin for the terms is an excellent start. You can buy them online and fairly cheaply. Donāt worry about a kit with extensive language/ grammar study at first.
I will have a book that focuses exclusively on reading the movements of the forms in Mandarin available this Spring or Autumn. We are testing it now and everyone who has used it says they can read the Chinese for the movements fairly well.
We will let everyone know when it is ready. In the meantime, continue with your studies and if you have questions, ask!
Steve Cottrell
Hi JadeMantis,
as MantisifuFW remarks it is āDip Jauā (cant.) for the elbowstrike.
Here are the names for the beginning movements as fare as i know:
Kwa Fu Yau Bo Cheui / Palmblock striking fist
Tong Long Bou Sin / Double grapping hand
Dang Saan Jo Chaap Jeung / thrusting Palm
Dang Saan Yau Bo Cheui
Jung Fung Tong Cheui
Yap Waan Yau Dip Jau / elbowstrike
Yap Waan Bang Cheui
Bui Hau Taam Bou
Ma Sik Seung Fung Sau / double grapping hand
I made some remarks, so you can identify the techniques. It is not a translation for the name of the technique.
Best regards,
Chris