Got to go Ernie!..We’ll talk again later. 
Ernie sez:
funny if it dosen’t fit you personal scope
I wasnt peddling my personal scope. Wing chun does have principles of structure timing and usage.Joy
Paul H:
I am techincally challenged when it comes to storing net things and scanning. But aelward(John Kang) who has been quiete ofr a while— I think he or someone else posteda picture if Master Ip
and his bong— taken several years before his final video just before his death. The fingers are pointing forward and down at an angle pat the center line. The bridge is at the line. The palm is facing forward.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------Ernie-sez
that means i’m behind a persons timing and that is not a good place to be .
Got it wrong. One plays ones game and uses right timing. A good bong sao can cotrol.
Ernie sez:
if you haven’t or can nolongert fight just be honest –
Ha ha Ernie-you and your illusions!! False too!!
But you know what dude- I dont have to impress you.
sloppy ,
sometimes but i try to keep things tidy 
it alot more difficult to not get hit by a high level anything , especialy if your not familier with the lines of attack , at least with a wing chun person you have a idea how he or she is coming .
later jong i’m off to work myself .
Ha ha Ernie-you and your illusions!! False too!! But you know what dude- I dont have to impress you
o.k. illusions delusions what ever
since when does sharing experiences mean you are trying to impress .
I wasnt peddling my personal scope. Wing chun does have principles of structure timing and usage.Joy
you know you keep saying , but neglect to express it . it’s real easy to say you can fly . but when you jump off the buliding things change .
Got it wrong. One plays ones game and uses right timing. A good bong sao can cotrol.
no i know your nuts , being behind a persons timing means you are late ‘’ chasing ‘’ we don’t chase hands and we don’t chase timing . yes a bong can control fro a second on the way to something better , but that makes 2 actions or 3 , should we not eliminate actions if it at all possible .
as usual when it’s time to speak personal experience silence falls
Here is just one example where I think bong sao is useful. Yes, it is artificial, but all static examples must be. From their fook sao position, the opponent attempts to drop your inside hands and punch your stomach…you kwan sao them off balance and your tan arm has an open line to their body.
Thanks, Joy. Now I recalled seeing the picture before. And I do it too in the lop sau drill. The direction of the Bong fingers just point away to where your energy along the forearm flows to. It could be very soft mostly to detect "mindful’ intention of the opponent’s energy on the bridges.
Regards,
Paul H- true and more.
Joy
Originally posted by [Censored]
[B]as usual when it’s time to speak personal experience silence falls
Here is just one example where I think bong sao is useful. Yes, it is artificial, but all static examples must be. From their fook sao position, the opponent attempts to drop your inside hands and punch your stomach…you kwan sao them off balance and your tan arm has an open line to their body. [/B]
Ordinarily I don’t like cookbook formulas, but what [Censored] has described here is very basic and important to my Chi Sao.
Regards,
Ernie
I use bong sao in kwan sao lots when full contact fighting against strong round kicks. Especially when there’s no where to go except laterally like when against the ropes. It’s also good against a wide round, (not hook) punch. Bong/kwan has saved my grill many times. I’m not giving it up.
Phil,
Don’t let Ernie fool you. The guy uses Kwun Sau a lot to smother my chain attacks on him. He prefers not to use bong, but he uses bong often to save his skin when he needs to. His bong is actually very good, you rarely see his bong but the transitional move from the bong position.
Regards,
Originally posted by yuanfen
[B]Fajing-
you may be underestimating the full repertoire of bong sao. [/B]
Sort of. Actually I am not in possession of the knowledge of the full repertoire of Bong Sao, nor the expertise in applying the same. Perhaps I should have qualified my statement more explicity. Personally I find the low bong sao actually physically easier to perform. Also, as others have said, as part of kwan sao which is a great motion. To be honest, I have only used the high bon sao once during sparring, and I was suprised, amazed, and self-congratulatory. But the principle/Jing of twisting the arm from the shoulder to the wrist while extending, I have definitely used, if not the specific shape and postion of the classic high bon sao. So in that sense the training of the bon sao has helped me.
Looking at it theoretically, it seems to be a quite favorable motion to perform when someone is exerting pressure from the outside on an extended bridge, such as your punch to the head or your Tan Sao. You can dissipate the pressure economically and come around into a whipping punch, or else fire off a shot with the rear hand.
I think the caveats commonly brought up are valid - you are at the end of your joints’ range-of-motion, so Bong sao should not “stay,” allowing the opponent to take advantage. Also, beginners in Wing Chun seem to be over-reliant on this motion, playing with it like it’s a new toy. I sure did.
sssshhhh paul can’t you tell when i’m playing devils advocate
phil
no need to dump the kwan , or the bong it has it’s place in recovering position and correcting a situation , but it’s not a place you want to be in [ protecting your grill ] you would rather have him protecting his .
which brings me back full circle when you are bonging you are not attacking you are responding to a attack , your timing is behind the person , you are reacting not acting . thus not a favorable position , so you must get out of that position as quickly as posible , while you are bonging you mid line is exposed and yes you could drop a gan if it were a stright line shot but that is a chi sau game not a anything goes game were it could be a looping hook with and elevation change and anglular footwork that' setting up your gan from the bong so they can get back to your face [[ high low high ]] many arts have this . knee or close quarter shin kick to the low line or ribls as the bong is being formed . there's tons of bad things that can happen on the exposed line .
and of course there is a counter for everything so i won’t drag that out . it’s just a matter of being honest about vulnerable spots and applications , instead of pretending there bullet proof .
hey and to all you guys that were giving personal situations that was awsome , thanks
Ernie…
Bong-sau is a circular tool. If the perimeter of bongs trajectory traces A) contact from the opponents strike and B) your target…then that’s one efficient motion in my eyes! One movement and you’re able to hit the opponent. WC is about concepts, not a literal translation, as you seem to conveying it as (devils advocate to get info??).
Chi-sau can teach you to generate force from any angle. Do some sparing with the correct structure, intent and focus and you will see that it’s actually quite useful and possible to pull off (not sure you practice the same structure that I’m practicing though, because what you said before about slipping is a big no-no if you’re planning on using this same WC structure IMHO).
And yes I have made this work against non-WC people in a sparing context. I cant say exactly what it was used against technique wise…because I’m not sure. All I do is match his angle, then redirect on my way to striking.
it teaches people to become fixed in a shape , instead of the flow .
Flow within the contex of the shapes. Restriction may, however, be pertinent to imagination on how to use WHAT and WHEN to use it. Look to the forms for some ideas, experimenting and experience in chi-sau can teach alot too if you’re constantly analysing results to varying input. Shapes are used for using structure as part of your fighting engine. They arent the only effective way as you have mentioned… but it’s one possible method. The WC method! 
hey S.Teebas
cool post man ,
and i do know what yout talking about once you have feel [[ sensitivity ]] you can catch a persons center on any point of your body and send ''power ‘’ in and destabilize there balance . shapes are no longer fixed at this point .
problem is people often get cauht up searching for that cohiesive point and miss oppertunities , or fall behind in the timing game .
i know what works i just like to ruffle peoples feathers and make them spit out personal experience instead of hide behind sayings like some moses reciting the ten commandments .
no one is perfect , we all make mistake but in those mistakes mine yours and others are the true gems that guide us and if we don’t share they get lost , so as allways thanks for sharing
as for the slip , it’s not a boxers slip were you drop elevation and roll the shoulders . think of chi sau position were you can step in with your tan to the face and your fook controls the bong arm kind of driving it into his center and twiting him at the same time that’s closer to the slip and sector thing i was talking about .
Hey Ernie,
“…when you are bonging you are not attacking you are responding to a attack…”
Sometimes we attack with a bong / wu
“…your timing is behind the person…”
I hear you. You mean like when someone sucker punches? I guess in that instance you start out behind.
que pasa phil
if you don’t mind let me ask you a question and in turn might show what i’m talking about
Sometimes we attack with a bong / wu
since niether bong or wu are primary striking weapons , what is it your attacking , or are you responding to a attack that was already launched ,
if that is the case then in respect to time you are behind the intial attack and are reacting to the attack , so in this situation you are behind , and need to recover time and turn the tables in your favor so the person is responding to you .
that’s what i mean by time , it’s always better to have him dealing with you then you dealing with him .
is that a little clearer 
now from here we can talk about useing your foot work to move in and split the time of his initial attack and stealing your time back ‘’ intecepting ‘’
which wing chun is very good at .
another way to look at it is you are intransition you arn’t being active your on your way to being active so the idea of bong being a transitional motion would for the time it is being used make you to some degree passive .
Hi Ernie,
I mean like exploding into you opponent with a bong/wu/lop using a parallel leg front leg attack to his blind side restricting his weapons. You of course must be prepared to counter any attack he ‘might’ retaliate with but that’s where your contact reflexes come into play.You have to catch him between “thought/mind” like…BANG.
Phil
re bong sau
hi guys, again i am sideing with earnie , wing chun is a sriking, art , i would never use bong sau , except with a footwork or pivort , or jamming movement, phil, with respect , if i worry to much,useing 4 or 5 movements before i hit, someone i would get, my head knocked off also as speaking from a disabled person , i need less movement not more use the technique at the right time, but don"t think it"s the be all to end all, and i also would never use , kwan sau to bloack kicks jamming the frount , leg as is chi gerk , teaches us to take care of that , peace russellsherry
Russell,
I appreciate your opinion but the bong/wu JAM I’m refering to IS ‘one’ move. I’ve used it as a bouncer over the years in clubs at close quarters and in other encounters many times. Trust me. It works for me. Maybe it’s hard to imagine unless you see it used.
Phil
phil
i get it your closing of a line on entry , and if and when he try’s to change you zap him
in this your timing is ahead he is reactive , good place to be .
as long as you have good timing the tooling is interchangable ,basicly a door is open the exact way you chose to go through that door is up to you,
russell,
you like to fight and test your stuff , so i hear you loud and clear , certain realities come to light when the heat is applied , and if things are not tested in a open enviroment , well …i guess anything is possible
thanks for chiming in gentlemen always good to hear from people with experince that are willing to share .