Sorry Ernie- you just dont get it and sarcasm doesnt help you.
One doesnt have to use wing chun- many ways to skin a cat.
Bong sao has many uses in wing chun and only a dead bong sao is always “passive”.
just how i see things that’s the beauty of oppinions , prove me wrong ,
and sacasim has many faces and sometimes is hidden in peoples remarks
put your bong sau were your mouth is and give a clear discription were you find that action is better then a non passive action , i don’t sugar coat things with proverbs and dead guy quotes or sayings on a rock . give personal experiences that you have had against a skilled fighter were your bong sau was a better choice … until then i guess i just won’t get it
and by the way i didn’t name any names so if you felt insulted that’s on you .
just looking for realism and fact …
as usual when it’s time to speak personal experience silence falls
Re: bong sau
>>1. What is the “nature” of your bong sau?
A circular motion. Bong is not the frozen Bong position, but the whole rolling movement from Tan to that Bong position.
>>2. What is your bong sau used for?
Jam, deflect, uproot, can also turn into a palm hit, a punch, or reach for the back of the neck once the attacking arm is cleared. Due to the circular and moving nature of the Bong, incoming force is not met head on. We don’t face a punch with a static Bong position, always meet with some rolling.
>>3. What does your bong sau look like?
My Bong sau looks differently every other week, still working on it 
But the circular idea is always there.
>>4. How do you train your bong sau?
SNT, Chi Sau. Use no forearm muscle… could take years.
Bong Sau is a wonderful Jaan Dai Lik training. Every where from Tan to Bong position (and from Bong pos. to Tan) shall have Jaan Dai Lik.
Good post YYlee
Ernie
Completely disagree with you. Bong is very offensive. There are so many ways it can be used.
Good post YYlee. Right Miles. Not only can be used agressively
in addition to defensively but has other functional applications
including locking, throwing and breaking. Plus twohanded combinations with bong.
Ernie -lots of experiences with the bong. Each time its unique to the situation at hand.
Ernie
If you hate Wing Chun as much as you seem to do,why don’t you “try” something else.
You would fit right in the JKD mindset (IMO)
i don’t hate wing chun i just don’t need to worship it or make it sound invincible. no smoke screens or bill of goods here
as for bong being agressive , i could beat you with a pillow and make it aggersive but there would be a better tool for the job
again the question is dodged .
in your personal experience were has the bong been a better tool , then a lan ,or punch, or elbow strike , the bong is transitional not a primairy strike , it’s like trying to make a parry into a pimairy weapon not effecient sure you could do it but not smart .
that’s my point , so if your running around trying to use the bong sau as a lead tool well then you mustr not be testing it against any one with any real skill.
infact aggressive bong sau is kind of silly now that i think about it , unless you are making space for a real weapon again that would mean you were behind a persons timing and trying to recover or change a position , so you made a mistake .
still no personal experiences to share eh,
just a lot of talk with no supportive facts , i’m not surprised
I dont think he hates it, rather he is interested in cutting the wheat from the chaff in the context of realistic application and what he feels works best.
This, IMHO is what WC should be about.
Ernie.
You seem to project your own flaws in everybody else.
Bong sau is one of the three main motions of the system and it has it’s many uses. If you feel like throwing it overboard,fell free to do so.
BTW, who talked about using bong sau as a lead tool…You did ! …Nobody else.
There are many ways to fight…besides wing chun. But if one is going to use wing chun- one has to learn it. Modifying it without learning it is no improvement.
And Ernie’s and several other comments on the bong seems to be speaking from mma and jkd perspectives already. I fyou dont have the full repertoire of bong- one needs to go back to the drawing board and learn it.
Ernie’s straw man:
so if your running around trying to use the bong sau as a lead tool well ..
Who advocated using bong asa lead tool? You simply dont understand the bong. It is a difficult motion to learn well.
Ernie- once again- you dont have a monopoly on “experience”.
Yes- I have used bong motions against resisting opponents.
No chest beating needed, thank you.
Paul H-- Bong fingers dont point into the line…take a good look at a good picture of Ip man’s bong.
you guys are funny if it dosen’t fit you personal scope then it must be mma or jkd that’s classic 
bong sau being a lead tool , hmmm if you read what i said instead of getting all huffy , i said originaly i hate bong sau because it is a transitional or recovery tool , that means i’m behind a persons timing and that is not a good place to be .
so i try to avoid being in a bad place , i guess that’s not wing chun right ?
there is always a better way , research and test , apply pressure and test , don’t get lazy and just play with wing chun people or you develop a false sense of what a tool can do.
the bong is a week position and can be used against you ,your low line is open , or it can be used as a handle to manipulate you structure if you have to much intent on it .
Ernie- once again- you dont have a monopoly on “experience”.
still waiting for you to add anything in this catagory . dude get over yourself if you haven’t or can nolongert fight just be honest stop hidding behind ''chest beating ‘’ it doesn’t mean your not a good teacher it just means you are human and haven’t got all the answers and lack experience in some area’s .
beware the teacher that has a answer for everything he is lieing . there is no way one person has all the answers .
as for my weakness got tons of them and i embrace them and grow from them , but it would seem you do not well god bless you superman…
old jong.
i just gave a alternitive to the use of bong in a situation and on came the bong junkies .
should we not look for better more effecient ways to solve a problem.
Joy,
Do you have a picture of Yip for me to view the bong? With regard to the Bong controversy, Ernie is thinking more of not giving up the 1st gate (tan, punch, chop, etc.). If the tan is the 1st action then Bong would be the 2nd action in theory. Opting for more proactive action rather than the seemingly “passive” or low key 2nd action of the bong, It makes more sense then to seek to strike the opponent from your nearest and closest weapons and Bong is just a “gate” too far to reach the target.
Regards,
Ernie.
Again, you should not decide when to use a motion or worse not to use it. In a real fight ,you will have only a split second to deal with and attack or a defense,change a line or whatever. You need the complete arsenal to have a chance of succes.
Wing Chun is not a “technique vs technique” thing and there is no ultimate or final use of any of its motions.
old jong
your right , you should mold to the situation not try and make it into somehting .
but this was a discussion on one shape and it’s use . and of couse it will at some be needed in a exchange since we are not perfect and have to recover a line or position , but in the example i was commenting on that started this hole thing , it was being used forcefully in a forward wedge and i just offed a different answer for the problem ,
and things got silly from there ,
but between me in you i like when people get all silly:)
Originally posted by Ernie
between me in you i like when people get all silly:)
Noooo!..You don’t tell me!..
But seriously,you will never find a high level Wing Chun’er who will use anything forcefully. A beginner could do this because he still thinks “this technique vs this attack” but good and intelligent training will take him beyong this stage at times. (unless he is a complete idiot!) 
…(or his teacher is!) …or… )
Ernie : as for my weakness got tons of them and i embrace them and grow from them
So go work on your bong sao!
So go work on your bong sao!
why when i have better options :o
old jong
But seriously,you will never find a high level Wing Chun’er who will use anything forcefully
which is why you don’t want to become to crispy working only of high level wing chun people , need to play with the sloppy folks this is more true to how things happen .
i know were your coming from once you have feel the technique is just a after thought a bi product of the confrontation , at this point is were position and timing and skill are more prominent .
this is exactly way i don’t like bong sau and ‘’ immovable bong sau’’ it teaches people to become fixed in a shape , instead of the flow .
people try and capture the moment with a bong and wedge or attack center and try and manipulate the other persons structure . bong can do it but it’s not a smart tool for these applications , how many shoulder injuries have you seen due to this , even guys with great bong saus and smooth springy intent get a little off angle or to much wieght at the wrong place and they get hurt .
Bong sau is not “immovable”…It’s a motion!..
It is also a lot…I mean a lot more difficult not to get hit by a high level Wing Chun man than by a sloppy folk (Unless you are sloppy yourself!.. )