Re: Re: Competing in the UFC.
Originally posted by PaulLin
I will be careful not to fall for ground tricks and I will hae the way of not rolling on the ground styles, cause that is what TCMA is about, if I roll with them, I would become a BJJ.
does that mean that if a grappler punches he ‘becomes’ a boxer? should he train to ‘avoid’ punching? or should he seek out punchers who will train him to be the best puncher he can be? etc.etc.etc.
Re: Re: Re: Competing in the UFC.
Originally posted by chingei
[B]
does that mean that if a grappler punches he ‘becomes’ a boxer? should he train to ‘avoid’ punching? or should he seek out punchers who will train him to be the best puncher he can be? etc.etc.etc. [/B]
Gee, I don’t know, you have ask that to a boxer or grappler. I only know how the TCMA has alway been. Nowadays, it is not a big problem to have multi-style or mixed styles. Only if you want to deal with the matter the TCMA way that we have done in the past, then that matters.
Re: Re: Competing in the UFC.
Originally posted by PaulLin
To have the way of not rolling on the ground styles is what TCMA is about, if rolling with them, It would become a BJJ or mixed MA.
Well i think thats true when you take moves directly out of another system because you like them and dont pay attention to if the moves work within the principles of the system but i think you can fight with groundfighting in you TCMA as long as the moves are within the principles of your system.
Re: Re: Re: Competing in the UFC.
Originally posted by Le nOObi
[B]
Well i think thats true when you take moves directly out of another system because you like them and dont pay attention to if the moves work within the principles of the system but i think you can fight with groundfighting in you TCMA as long as the moves are within the principles of your system. [/B]
True.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Competing in the UFC.
Originally posted by PaulLin
[B]
Gee, I only know how the TCMA has alway been. [/B]
I don’t think you do.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Competing in the UFC.
Originally posted by PaulLin
[B]
True. [/B]
Yay agreement!
If a person gets attacked in bed by an assailant, should he NOT groundfight because it’s against his supposedly TCMA principles?
That’s why I agree 100% with chingei.
Originally posted by HuangKaiVun
That’s why I agree 100% with chingei.
you are clearly a genius.
I don’t think so.
It doesn’t take a genius to feel the same way you did in your post.
Originally posted by HuangKaiVun
It doesn’t take a genius to feel the same way you did in your post.
Yes it does, ******!
Originally posted by HuangKaiVun
[B]If a person gets attacked in bed by an assailant, should he NOT groundfight because it’s against his supposedly TCMA principles?
That’s why I agree 100% with chingei. [/B]
There is difference when you are in a sparing that is attempt to improve your arts or it is a live and death situation. I guess you are preparing to handle the assailant in bed every night.
Paul Lin
Paul Lin.
That Japanese guy that defeated 4 gracies (Royce, Renzo, Ryan and Royler) was none other than the greatest showman and the best middle weight fighter in the world, Kazushi Sakuraba.
And what did he cross train in? You guessed it. He started as a pro wrestler doing catch and submission wrestling, and yes he did some cross training in Beverly Hills Jiu Jitsu Club.
Almost all of his matches were finished by submission. Except when he kicked the **** out of Royce Gracie’s leg until it was broken.
You might want to use another example when comparing ith TCMA because Sakuraba did cross train, and DID roll with the Gracies and DID beat them at their own game.
And your not comprehending what I am saying about cross training. In TCMA, do you get taught how to escape submissions and bad positions while on the ground? If yes, then that’s great! If no, then how are you going to escape those bad positions so that you can carry on to use CMA principles to win the fight. Of course your not going to try to submit a grappler, but to escape from a bad position so you could then apply a CMA technique to end it. Am how are you to learn to do that? By cross training in any kind of grappling art, unless you already get taught how to escape in TCMA. So you don’t end up rolling with a grappler but to escape and stand up ASAP.
And let me re iterate. In the ring you are going to end up rolling on the ground for at least 50% of the time. SO YOU HAVE TO TRAIN FOR GROUNDFIGHTING. Whether it be sub wrestling, BJJ, some kind of chinese wrestling… anything. As long as you are used to being on the ground, escaping or fighting, whatever you choose. But to say that and carry one with the attitude that you don’t need familiarity with ground escaping or fighting methods because you cannot be taken down or saying that you can knock out your opponent before they can take you down is very bad fo your health especially in a cage match such as the UFC nd ring matches such as Pride.
“In TCMA, do you get taught how to escape submissions and bad positions while on the ground? If yes, then that’s great! If no, then how are you going to escape those bad positions so that you can carry on to use CMA principles to win the fight.”
Liteblu is right. If you think about the origins of Kungfu then there is no shame in saying there are gaps in the system if there are.
The way I see it is: Kungfu was designed for fighting on the battlefield (no ground game) and against other Kungfu stylists, right? So no real need for a ground game. Geographically it would have been quite difficult to spar against other styles back in the day, right?
So its not a real bad thing to admit, OK, my style has no defense against this because historically there was no need for it.
We are living in an age where something that previously would not have been a threat now becomes a threat because of the nature of modern training and the availability of modern styles.
Does that make sense? Is it even accurate? Someone who has more knowledge of Kungfu, history whatever may be able to refute or confirm this…
Re: Paul Lin
Originally posted by LiteBlu
And your not comprehending what I am saying about cross training. In TCMA, do you get taught how to escape submissions and bad positions while on the ground? If yes, then that’s great! If no, then how are you going to escape those bad positions so that you can carry on to use CMA principles to win the fight. Of course your not going to try to submit a grappler, but to escape from a bad position so you could then apply a CMA technique to end it. Am how are you to learn to do that? By cross training in any kind of grappling art, unless you already get taught how to escape in TCMA. So you don’t end up rolling with a grappler but to escape and stand up ASAP.
Many TCMA are not really a set of moves but a set of principles. I believe it is possible for a TCMA guy to cross train BJJ and remain totally traditional. Also TCMA have standing submission things so why couldnt they have submissions on the ground.
This is a badpost by me because it really lacks a conclusion so its more like a stream of thought.
Originally posted by scotty1
[B]". Geographically it would have been quite difficult to spar against other styles back in the day, right?
… [/B]
Well on that subject your pretty wrong! I mean arts like choy li fut , hung gar and northern praying mantis were all created out of crosstraining.
That’s right, PaulLin.
I don’t like the idea of somebody being able to abuse me when I’m lying in bed - and neither do my female students (especially those who HAVE been attacked before).
In real life, people attack you when you’re most compromised. Unlike you, I intend to be READY for such realities. I thus train my martial art for any situation anytime anywhere against anybody.
scotty1, kung fu men back in the day went wide and far to test their arts against all sorts of competition.
In the vastness of kung fu, there’s everything from groundfighting to legfighting to strictly standup. The notion that kung fu didn’t adapt itself for groundfighting is true for some styles but not for quite a few others. Lama, shuai chiao, and Seng Men are but a few styles I can think of that took these things into account.
Besides, it’s the limited and low-level kung fu fighter who can only extend his art to the ranges of combat covered by his sifu. Such students aren’t true students of kung fu - they’re just imitators. If a student truly has kung fu, then he’ll be able to innovate his own solutions using the principles of the style he learned.
In kung fu, it’s better to be a stutterer than a parrot.
as
Great post Huang i agree 100%
“Well on that subject your pretty wrong! I mean arts like choy li fut , hung gar and northern praying mantis were all created out of crosstraining”
Crosstraining with what? Other MA styles or other Kungfu styles?
If your style of Kungfu has the answers for dealing with a BJJ stylist on the ground (escapes and what not), then fair enough.
Originally posted by scotty1
[B]“Well on that subject your pretty wrong! I mean arts like choy li fut , hung gar and northern praying mantis were all created out of crosstraining”
Crosstraining with what? Other MA styles or other Kungfu styles?
. [/B]
Oh other kungfu styles but these styles were pretty **** diverse.There are giant differences between the different styles of kungfu. As for non-kungfu styles european wrestlers did challenge kung-fu masters as well as japanese stylists although i dont think any kungfu styles were majorly influenced.
“As for non-kungfu styles european wrestlers did challenge kung-fu masters as well as japanese stylists although i dont think any kungfu styles were majorly influenced.”
This is what I was getting at, Kungfu’s exposure to groundfighting back in the day.
If the only exposure was to other standup styles because (for whatever reason) fighting on the ground was not desired, then how would the style develop any form of groundfighting defense, or methods of fighting on the ground? Even if only to get out of a submission/whatever and get back on your feet.
What I’m saying is, if Kungfu styles were not exposed to groundfighting when they were being developed why on earth would they have techniques to counter that?
IE. why should we expect past masters to have allowed for a future problem?
Of course, this is all a big if, and a lot of conjecture on my part, but really I’m just stirring it up a little.
“european wrestlers did challenge kung-fu masters…although i dont think any kungfu styles were majorly influenced”
Is this because:
A) outside of challenge matches there was no need for defense against groundfighters ?
or
B) there was already defense against groundfighters in the style?
And if you choose B) what would have made the developers of the style decide to incorporate those defenses if they were not really necessary?
And if they were necessary, why does everyone always go on about Kungfu being a battlefield art and “if you hit the floor you’re dead”?
Logical inconsistencies, probably due to gaps in my knowledge.