Hendirx i sent you a pm
[QUOTE=stonecrusher69;1016845]Hendirx i sent you a pm[/QUOTE]
ok, reply you there.
The Yik Kam lineage Cho family WCK sets
For Yik Kam and Cho family WCK lineage,
the following are a list of what were practicing 40 years or more ago as a the Cho or Yik Kam WCner, hand down by my late sifu Cho Hung Choy.
The following list do not include the CLF or other Kuen Choong related collection sets but WCK Kuen Choong ( seed of martial art ) related only. and each set carry a purpose for the training.
This list is post here so that those who is studying Yik Kam lineage has a reference in today’s confusing evolution period.
A, Core of Yik Kam WCK teaching:
* 4 section Siu Lien Tao (Little First Training) with full kuen kuit instruction.
B, Core Illustration of Siu Lien Tao concept application sets:
These are must to have after to aids the SLT.
These two sets are consider the two wings of SLT.
These are old sets which was believe from the Red Boat period in additional to the 4 section SLT.
* Sui Da (distributed strike)
* Jin Jeung (Arrow Palm)
( this set is also some times called CK BJ set by some other branch
the characteristic of this set is using no punch strike )
C, Second core illustration of Siu Lien Tao concept application sets:
These are great to have for further explore the SLT concept.
* Jeet Kuen (Intercepting Fist)
* Fa Kuen (Variegated Fist)
* Jin Kuen (Arrow Fist)
* Taap Chooi (hammer fist)
* Fu Hok kuen (Tiger Crane )
* Joy bat seen Kuen (Drunken Fist)
Drill set :
* Muk Yan Jong (Wooden Dummy)
weapon set:
* Luk Dim Boon Gwun Sup Saam Cheung (Six and a Half Point Pole Thirteen Spear)
* Yan Jee Do (Convergent Shaped Knives) etc.
Two men drill set:
* Chi Sao Lung ( duo Sticking Hands Set)
Chi sau platform:
* Huen cycle, Kaam cycle chi sau platform.
On Hendrik’s posts
Hendrik says:
For Yik Kam and Cho family WCK lineage,
the following are a list of what were practicing 40 years or more ago as a the Cho or Yik Kam WCner, hand down by my late sifu Cho Hung Choy.
The following list do not include the CLF or other Kuen Choong related collection sets but WCK Kuen Choong ( seed of martial art ) related only. and each set carry a purpose for the training.
Kudos to Hendrik for trying to preserve Yik Kam’s art- but without active good teaching it will be difficult for the art to avoid what some Yik Kam folks have been doing- mixing CLF and hung kar.
On another point on Hendrik’s critique of rooting etc— in wing chun- there is as happens in forums
some broad over- generalizations ( as for several frequent posters as well) about wing chun which has lots of diversity.The over-generalizations are often projections of what they know or don’t know.
Thus in passing-there are Ip Man influenced lines including mine which emphasizes balancing different vectors and directions (six- or even more) in the forms and in applications. This is not a criticism of Yik Kam wc- but a pointing towards the versatility of the inheritance from Ip Man and caution about over generalizations.
joy chaudhuri.
Joy,
I brought up the six directional force vectors because we all needs a common tool to analyze and describe Nature.
It is not about generalization however it is about introducing a tool which is details enough to be able for 99% of us to speak a common language and be able to see is there missing element.
IE: What does Sinking means?
as we know in reality there always present a down ward, up ward, left ward, right ward, forward, and back ward at any instant.
So, when some one said sinking. that means one needs to translate and address what does sinking means in the natural phenomenon of the six directional force vectors.
If sinking means only down ward force vectors then what happen to the other five? similar to when one land a plane it is not just going down. it got to take care all of the six force vectors in the same time. otherwise the plane will crash.
In the same token, term like, Sinking, Rooting, grounding… there are ok in general for generalization however it is extremely in adequate to describe what happen in a world with six directional force vectors.
As for how to handle the six directional force vectors that is depend on the philosophy of the lineage or style. I have no comment on that and respect every one’s style and philosophy.
What I am getting into is I dont buy such teaching of Sinking, Rooting, grounding, alignment of Knee and spine, and forward pressure…etc
That is because under the basic force components of the nature – the six directional/dimensional force vectors, the so called sinking, rooting, grounding. is incomplete in describing a structure whether it is a static or dynamic structure.
So, it is usual, in TCMA to tell others Keep practice some days you will know. Or This is my family secret believe me. Well, in the eyes of the nature — the six directional force vectors. It is not a solution to just tell others a single force vectors or in complete force vectors and up to others to guess on the next 5 variables. and who the heck can know how tha 5 variables end up? and how is those suppose to get one a good result?
WE speak of to be scientific , using physics, using biomechanics…, so the unless the full six directional force vectors are described. it is not scientific at all.
The above is just a very basic which without it the structure description is in complete. and how can one master a move or a post when the description is in complete and having 5 variables to guess? How is that then of system in term of repeatability? It is a mess.
So, it doesnt matter with Yik Kam or Cho family lineage or any lineage or any style. My expectation is if anyone like to tell a story, one better tell the full story. meaning tell what happen to all the components and leave nothing incomplete.
Again, this is not even in the level of using Jin or force yet.
Thus, bai jong, sinking, grounding, hip press,.. in reality doesnt make much sense unless all the six force vectors being describe.
Some one argue that one must have a flexible spine, a good position knee, certain width of stance…etc.
Well, what is a flexible spine means in term of the six directional force vectors? a flexible spine for those who perform in Bilajo’s O show, the yogic, and the common people have a beer belly are different. That too is just an inconsistance describition.
it is not that useful.
and also, how is one 's mind suppose to process all those flexible spine, knees… alignement on the run or dynamic state? It simply cant. mind is too confuse and slow for those type of things. in fact it becomes a burden.
So, my point is simple, if one doesnt have a clear describition, check and balance on what one is talking about. It is problematic.
If one doesnt have a simple principle to follow but rely on the fuzzy flexible spine, knees, body alignment… the whole thing is a mess while in action eventhough one might sound great teaching some one to stand a post as learn some cultural practice.
and if we keep carrying out things as the above. we all will be screwed. Because the advance TCMA IMA everything is very specifically define and we will never get that far.
Thus, I say, some could argue standing in a swimming pool long enough will make one to be able to swim. Well, what is the Chance? 1/1000? Why not get a proper teaching and learn the first day in the pool and get 95/100 ability to swim.
also, without those six directional force vectors basic, it is very difficult to describe style or dynamic way of handling force or Jin with different philosophy. Thus, practically, realistically, it is a 1/1000 type of deal without the tool.
Why do we want to defend those 1/1000 type of teaching and screw ourself?
Perhaps, it is because our ego wont let us be honest to said, " I dont know" instead of " Oh, I got it too." how is an unrepeatable ill describe process can produce good result effective ? It cant. that is a reality. if anyone studying control system design or industrial engineering or manufacturing engineering.
I am just pointing out a better tool is needed and a good tool save time and get much much better result. in fact, I am not being generalized I am looking for extremely specific and details.
CAn anyone tell me what happen with the six directional force vectors while you are practicing the YJKYM with forward pressing intention statically? is your force structure balance or imbalance?
also, can anyone tell me with the same YJKYM with forward pressing intention practice ; when this type of force structure meet a face to face hug in at the waist level with a momentum power by the same body weight with the acceleration of the central gravity; what happen?
can this structure still sustain and balance or the whole structure totally collapse?
See for yourself, what happen.
just some thought.
PS. sure, some one might say, I turn Darth Vaders because I would like to clone everything and leaving no room for personal style. Well, my point is simple, and that is untill one could clone the basic there is never a personal style anyway. the true jedi knows it must going through the solid discipline to clearly attain the basic before the personal style.
SLT means Details training. How details are we or we are full of " I do it this way because it is my way, but in capable to even describe the basic."
For those who keep bring up bio mechanic and physics as their mantra. Well, unless one could describe all the force vectors components and the trajectory.
there is no different to use bio mechanics and physics as a mantra then using other mantra alibi.
Those are just for arguement to boost ego.
Well, saying enough, let you guys think about it.
there is no different to use bio mechanics and physics as a mantra then using religion mantra.
Dude, do you even know anything about physics and bio-mechanics ???
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1016965]Dude, do you even know anything about physics and bio-mechanics ???[/QUOTE]
You would like to go there.
describe the 3 D force vector compoments distribution of an action and it is trajectory path as a prerequisite.
Until one could do that what physics? what bio-mechanics?
if one dont even have basic quantitative description of force and basic mechanics. What is it? Nothing.
my expectation is one’s description needs to be in the level of the following papers to be anything useful.
[QUOTE=Hendrik;1016966]You would like to go there.
describe me the 3 D force vector compoments distribution of an action and it is trajectory path as a prerequisite.
Until you could do that what physics? what bio-mechanics?
if you cant you dont even have basic quantitative description of force and basic mechanics.[/QUOTE]
I rest my case.
Dude, understand this, every movement the human body ( BIO) makes, is “mechanical”, do you understand that?
If you do then you have the core understanding of what bio-mechanics is.
Don’t muddle crap up with your fortune cookie crap, you write english just fine.
Describe me ONE human move, just ONE that CAN’T be explained by bio-mechanics, just ONE dude, then both you and I can make some $$$ because we just proves the supernatural !!
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1016967]I rest my case.
Dude, understand this, every movement the human body ( BIO) makes, is “mechanical”, do you understand that?
If you do then you have the core understanding of what bio-mechanics is.
Don’t muddle crap up with your fortune cookie crap, you write english just fine.
Describe me ONE human move, just ONE that CAN’T be explained by bio-mechanics, just ONE dude, then both you and I can make some $$$ because we just proves the supernatural !![/QUOTE]
That is your view and definition.
We can build useful robots today. So dont give me those lips service without the most basic quantitative elements for analysis. such as the most basic elements force vectors components.
my expectation is one’s description needs to be in the level of the following papers to be anything useful.
I am not interested in anything supernature.
anyone want to explained motion with physics and mechanics…bio-mechanics?
provide the basic elements, that is the basic things learn in the physics and mechanics classes right?
Hendrik- some comments in brackets embedded in your text
[QUOTE=Hendrik;1016963]Joy,
I brought up the six directional force vectors because we all needs a common tool to analyze and describe Nature.
((OK))
It is not about generalization however it is about introducing a tool which is details enough to be able for 99% of us to speak a common language and be able to see is there missing element.
IE: What does Sinking means?
((Sinking is NOT the only principle-but it does include getting into the ygkym properly without dualism and finding the balance point))
as we know in reality there always present a down ward, up ward, left ward, right ward, forward, and back ward at any instant.
((Sure…so?))
If sinking means only down ward force vectors then what happen to the other five?
((See above -it incorporates balance in all directions))
What I am getting into is I dont buy such teaching of Sinking, Rooting, grounding, alignment of Knee and spine, and forward pressure…etc
((of course structural integrity is the real aim))
So, it is usual, in TCMA to tell others Keep practice some days you will know. Or This is my family secret believe me. Well, in the eyes of the nature — the six directional force vectors. It is not a solution to just tell others a single force vectors or in complete force vectors and up to others to guess on the next 5 variables. and who the heck can know how tha 5 variables end up? and how is those suppose to get one a good result?
((Not all lineages mimic the straw man you seem to be describing))
It is a mess.
((some are. Some are not))
Why not get a proper teaching and learn the first day in the pool and get 95/100 ability to swim.
((some have))
Why do we want to defend those 1/1000 type of teaching and screw ourself?
((Dunno. Lots of people follow silly paths in life- not just in wing chun))
Perhaps, it is because our ego wont let us be honest to said, " I dont know" instead of " Oh, I got it too." how is an unrepeatable ill describe process can produce good result effective ? It cant. that is a reality. if anyone studying control system design or industrial engineering or manufacturing engineering.
((Dunno- engineering mixed up with commerce can mess up lots of things- or number 1 military chief Mullen says(yesterday) BP has better tech. than the defense department- welcome to the world of tech-commerce’s frankenstein monster in the Gulf of Mexico))
I am just pointing out a better tool is needed and a good tool save time and get much much better result. in fact, I am not being generalized I am looking for extremely specific and details.
(better than what? depends on who what when where you are talking about))
See for yourself, what happen.
(9Been there. Done that. I do test!!))
just some thought.
((some good thoughts- but sometimes over generalized in putting all of wing chun in one bottle))
PS. sure, some one might say, I turn Darth Vaders because I would like to clone everything and leaving no room for personal style. Well, my point is simple, and that is untill one could clone the basic there is never a personal style anyway. the true jedi knows it must going through the solid discipline to clearly attain the basic before the personal style.
((The voice of Ip Man–But I am your father…))
joy chaudhuri
and share with us how a Sinking which you emphasis can do all of the above.
I clearly explained that the sinking I was talking about had nothing to do with rooting to the ground or using the ground etc etc. You though instead of saying you didn’t understand decided to ignore what I said and just went on spouting what you think with no regard to what I said or making an effort to understand. Clearly your ego and insecurities make it to hard to discuss with you.
Force vectors and everything else are handled by circles horizontal and vertical use at the same time are the basics then you go from there Sinking has to do with where on the circle you are . Circles give you everything from how to breath to how to submit a person on the ground how to take someone down or to manipulate incoming force.
I have showed that the so called “sinking” is in adequate to model or handle a real life dynamics,
You have shown nothing. You play a childs game with your posts’" I know a secret but I won’t tell."
why dont you present to us here how can your “sinking” handle and cover the real life dynamic which required more then one single force vector. and what do you mean by
Done.
let’s start from basic simple physics and biomechanics. how is the sinking suppose to cover all the other force vectors components?
Answered above!
I am very interested to know what is the exactly the same thing?
Again you either do not understand the written word or choose to only read and understand what you wish too.
Made it very clear words don’t mean a thing . I call walking walking you call it chicken. What ever you call it the action is the same.
Hendrik,
How is dissolve, hua jing, and an jing different from TST’s nim lik concept in the clips below?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SSTrANc1Gn0&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=czC3XdVNzgo&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0POu0pxzO28&feature=related
and share with us how a Sinking which you emphasis can do all of the above. — H
I clearly explained that the sinking I was talking about had nothing to do with rooting to the ground or using the ground etc etc.
You though instead of saying you didn’t understand decided to ignore what I said and just went on spouting what you think with no regard to what I said or making an effort to understand.
Clearly your ego and insecurities make it to hard to discuss with you.
It is just a simple question.
You dont have to answer it if you dont want to .
If you have explain the sinking then it is as simple as copy it and paste it here for review.
I might miss it I might not understand you.
However, there is no needed for any personal attack.
Did I attack you or explain openly even when you brought up things which is in appropriate and not applicable to the topic.
Force vectors and everything else are handled by circles horizontal and vertical use
at the same time are the basics then you go from there Sinking has to do with where on the circle you are .
Circles give you everything from how to breath to how to submit a person on the ground how to take someone down or to manipulate incoming force.
Thanks for your description to share what you think.
however, that is not what I am communicating on the six directional force vectors concept.
A balance six directional force vectors doesnt required circles.
In fact, a balance six directional force vectors are balance at every instant and every point.
I have showed that the so called “sinking” is in adequate to model or handle a real life dynamics, ----- H
You have shown nothing. You play a childs game with your posts’" I know a secret but I won’t tell."
Probably you dont read my post.
Here are the cut and paste from my previous post
http://kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1016549&postcount=22
[B]Aircraft Dynamics, Abbreviated, Part 2, Calculating Forces and Torques of the following site
http://www.berkeleyscience.com/airplane.htm
one can see, “sink” itself is not edequate to describe or model a reality in the 3D space. even when one stand statically, not to mention when one got to move and everything move dynamically. “sinking” is simply in adequate because there are others force vectors needs to be balance.
analogy to the simplified air plane picture above, one needs to deal with the drag, trust, and lift be it when one is standing. So, the six directional force vectors and all the posts and the youtube I post up there is to address the basic of those stuffs. nothing so mysterious or difficult.
One cannot and must not throw out the other components and only talk about sinking. That is because sinking or downward direction force vector is just a piece of the story, there are 5 others pieces needs to be handle and balance.[/B]
It would be appreciate that you do not continuous to pull personal attack or in-appropriate arguements which is non applicable to the technical discussion.
why dont you present to us here how can your “sinking” handle and cover the real life dynamic which required more then one single force vector. and what do you mean by ---- H
Done.
OK.
et’s start from basic simple physics and biomechanics. how is the sinking suppose to cover all the other force vectors components? — H
Answered above!
Thanks.
Eventhough what you think is not what I am looking for. Still that help me to know your view.
I am very interested to know what is the exactly the same thing? — H
Again you either do not understand the written word or choose to only read and understand what you wish too.
or perhaps you dont understand what I am asking?
or perhaps you dont understand what I am communicating?
Made it very clear words don’t mean a thing . I call walking walking you call it chicken. What ever you call it the action is the same.
I have cite
http://www.berkeleyscience.com/airplane.htm
as reference.
and also force vectors are common physics and math languages.
and if you dont like that. That is ok with me.
I really dont see any further discussion is needed.
And I let it go here.
Thanks for the discussion.
Hendrik or Robert,
How is dissolve, hua jing, and an jing any different from TST’s nim lik concept in the clips below?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SSTrANc1Gn0&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=czC3XdVNzgo&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0POu0pxzO28&feature=related
[QUOTE=Hendrik;1016969]That is your view and definition.
We can build useful robots today. So dont give me those lips service without the most basic quantitative elements for analysis. such as the most basic elements force vectors components.
my expectation is one’s description needs to be in the level of the following papers to be anything useful.
I am not interested in anything supernature.
anyone want to explained motion with physics and mechanics…bio-mechanics?
provide the basic elements, that is the basic things learn in the physics and mechanics classes right?[/QUOTE]
I see you didn’t give me an example of an human movement that can’t be explained via bio-mechanics.
By the way, it was not MY definition.
bi·o·me·chan·ics (b’-m-kn’ks)
n.
(used with a sing. verb) The study of the mechanics of a living body, especially of the forces exerted by muscles and gravity on the skeletal structure.
(used with a pl. verb) The mechanics of a part or function of a living body, such as of the heart or of locomotion.
biomechanics (b’-m-kn’ks) Pronunciation Key
The scientific study of the role of mechanics in biological systems. The study of biomechanics includes the analysis of motion in animals, the fluid dynamics of blood, and the role of mechanical processes in the development of disease.
Paul- bio mechanics is fine- but there are other things- not supernatural that can be IMO involved in human physical interactions. many human skills have been developed or used via experience and practice without opening a bio mechanics text. First rate boxers for instance can sense the beginning intent or moment of a motion of an adversary and react accordingly before the motion is really underway.
joy chaudhuri
You totally missed my points.
My point is simply if you want to talk about physics and mechanics and biomechanics.
Start with the basic. Which is the forces vectors components and trajectory.
and from there, see how far you could model and simulate it. First order? second order? third order? Using PID system, Using soft computing…etc.
the contents of Physics, mechanics, and bio mechanics are definitely NOT just cite some dictionary definition and start arguing.
I brought up the six directional force vectors, their balancing, trajectory, and equilibrium in statics and dynamic state. That is the basic of physics and mechnics.
so,
Stop arguing nonsense such as
you didn’t give me an example of an human movement that can’t be explained via bio-mechanics.
Those are just mantra similar to " Qi does it all." even simple movement cant be explained via mechanics and physics if the formulated model/equation has less order then the dynamics.
So, please do not generalized things which you dont know.
Today’s technology is about modeling, simulation and model evaluation on the forcast or prediction to see how close one’s model in term of force vectors…etc can be compare to reality. and if first order model cant do it, second order will be needed, if linear super position model cannot do it, then non lineage model is needed.
do you know the state space variable to formulate the dynamic system? if you dont even have the basic force vectors components, there is no way to create a model, to compute or simulate or emulate the subject. and also, depend on the level of the model, not neccesary one’s model could comprehensively explain the details of human motion.
The bottom line is, if you want to bring up physics, mechanics, and bio mechanics.
Starts with the state space of the force vectors components trajectory if you want to talk physics and mechanics…etc
Otherwise, it is just talk and go no where arguement like a mantra which do nothing but thinking you know it all.
So, why do I use the six directional force vectors ?
because I have done analized and modeling for the power/structure generation dynamics with the basic of physic and mechanics to formulate precise repeatable process.
and that is not lips service and dictionary citing but know exactly where and how each key force vectors’ interaction in the state space.
Finally, if you want to talk physics, mechanics, follow the basic of the field. otherwise it is just some empty speculation which telling nothing on WHAT, HOW, WHEN and the specific.
So why am I bring these up here? because one could use the Six directional force vectors trajectory tools to precisely describe the structure and power generation process and also analyzed for different signature of the structure…etc.
IE:
Sinking is not equal to Peng ( as in peng jing of taichi) which balance all the six directional force vectors.
Horse stance is not the same with Wu JI stance.
Hip induces power generation is not the same with the Yi Chuan triangle power or huan yuan lik…etc.
one can simply go to the lab, place all the motion sensors in the body parts, doing the above sinking to peng…ect. ask the software to reconstruct the force vectors dynamic trajectory and see it clearly what is what in details. That I call it physics and mechanics. Until one has get that far please dont even argue the topic. because you dont even know what it is.
some might take this post as harsh or rude. harsh and rude are not my point. My point is stop using those “qi does it all” " Physics, mechanics…does it all" mantra. those has no different.
If you want to talk Qi does it, present the details. If you want to talk Physics, mechanics… does it all, present the details which is the forces vectors trajectory…etc. Otherwise it is the same type of non sense.
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1017118]I see you didn’t give me an example of an human movement that can’t be explained via bio-mechanics.
By the way, it was not MY definition.
bi·o·me·chan·ics (b’-m-kn’ks)
n.
(used with a sing. verb) The study of the mechanics of a living body, especially of the forces exerted by muscles and gravity on the skeletal structure...............[/QUOTE]
Hendrik,
would you say this guy is using the 6 directional force vector? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fVDa_tVK3kA&feature=related
Hendrik or Robert,
How is dissolve, hua jing, and an jing any different from TST’s nim lik concept in the clips below?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SSTrANc1Gn0&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=czC3XdVNzgo&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0POu0pxzO28&feature=related
For those who still dont understand why I am using the six directional force vectors…dynamic trajectories…etc.
Check out the
Human Motion Reconstruction by Direct Control of Marker Trajectories
…We validated our new algorithm through a set of tai chi movement data. The
results illustrate smooth tracking of the marker trajectories in marker space. Smooth
joint angles trajectories were obtained as a natural output of the marker tracking
methodology. A bound on the joint space error was obtained and the results of this
analysis indicated stable error bounds over the trajectory…
Those type of stuffs are what I am into these days.
why do I get into these? because I want all type of Jing could be clearly define and synthesis. So there is no Your interpretation or Mine interpretation. I would like to see Trajectory signature matching if one has develop the same type of Jing.
So, please dont give me that Sinking is same with “levitate” or you are …etc.
one needs to based the issue with dynaimc trajectory signature and that is independent of who did what or who say what.