Hip Movement

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
1

Hello,

This is mainly for Robert and Hendrick and Andreas if he is on the board.

I have been training in American Kunto Silat and they use a very interesting Hip Rotation to generate power. I do not see any reason to be unable to use this same dynamic with my Wing Chun.

After reading someone post about Andreas and Hendrick using they hip gyrations (akin to love making) I was curious and wanted to see if I could learn move about how they are using the hips.

I would really prefer to keep this discussion on tact and not diverge to other things or name calling etc. If that happens I will delete the thread.

Robert, Hendrick, Adreas, feel free to PM or contact me off line to discuss.

2

To reply your question,

Closer to Robert’s, but I dont use hip the same way with Andreas.
That is because we all have different style and different style has different core philosophy.

Also, in my lineage, and I can speak for my lineage only, as Robert has mention, hip movement is less pronounce as time goes by because hip is a part of the body and snake movement must not emphasis on any part to get a smooth operation, due to as you know, “snake” engine is the emphasis of my lineage.

Ultimately, it got to get to the point of — as the Intention makes the power is there. emphasis hip movement can become an issue or “break point of the chain” if not handle properly.

As for how to handle the hip and knees and every joint of spine…etc, that is where the Six dimensional force vectors balancing comes in to play. anything excessive create problem.

Thus, in the above one needs not to align the body similar to the traditional generalization way or require how each joint suppose to be alignt…etc. because the technology is suppose to be so simple and use both at static and dynamic state.

It is a different paradigm compare with the general – sinking, rooting, standing post,
power generation.

further more, in my lineage, we dont generate power from hip or spine. also, the power generation has a few components for acceleration and propel outward, it is different then the usual thinking of using muscle or ground power. It is much complicated then that to analyze.

And ofcouse you always need to take in the consideration that every different style as a different way. and the above is just a way.

Hope this help.

A side topic:

This also open up a topic called Kuen Choong or Seed of the martial art. Since as most know Cho gar has lots collection sets of different style, thus, my late sifu Cho Hong-Choy was very particular to how the set done according to the Kuen Choong.

In an occation, I was doing my SLT with CLF they of hip move and step size, I got scold big time on this. He told me, " dont be Paan Chat (stupid) how the heck is that way of practice produce the short jin and gentle type appearence? you waste your practice making this type of mistake. now your practice not benifit you as CLF also not benifit you as WCK. be careful on the Kuen Choong. Know that before you do your set. cant be fuzzy."

So, one cant use cookie cutter one size fit all for everything, especially when it comes to power generation because every style or lineage is a custom made.

These days the term Kuen Choong seems like a vanished word. Cho family has lots of details description because Cho family is a Martial family for generations. As I was told ,for generation Cho family ancestors also earn and hold title in Qing Government martial school examination. So, Cho is very particular and precise in the ancient time because these people are real pro. After my sifu Cho Hong-Choy passed away, I have not yet met a person in Cho family go that deep in analized art, hope I could met some one someday who has the same level of understanding as my late sifu.

according to my sifu there is a reason for why thing was done the way it is . and also it often is not a single event but related to the whole system, and also knowing the Kuen Choong is knowing the strength and weakness of the art.

3

[QUOTE=Hendrik;1016817]To reply your question, Closer to Robert’s, but I dont use hip the same way with Andreas.
[/QUOTE]

So you also pump the hips like lovemaking similar to Robert and Alan Orr, but more subtle to link the legs and whole body in your arm movements?

4

[QUOTE=kung fu fighter;1016836]So you also pump the hips like lovemaking similar to Robert and Alan Orr, but more subtle to link the legs and whole body in your arm movements?[/QUOTE]

If I may, I do about the same thing. When we look at structure while we are exerting force or punching, we do so at an upward angle. Myself as an example. I drop down into stance, lower than when standing normal, and the opposing face is upward and away from me. To strike it I punch upward. Now, looking at placing a chair under a door knob to prevent it from being opened, you can see much the same structure. The chair is leaned at an angle, depending on the distance above the floor the knob is. 40 to 50 degrees maybe? Any more of an angle and the door might just shove the chair over. Any less and it might slide the chair across the floor. From our feet to our fist is that similar angle. We are not in such an angle when we move about, and when we punch, this pumping of the a$$ as we punch brings us into the proper angle to exert maximum force.
I might be wrong in my assessment, but I look at it like this. Every action is said to exert an equal opposing action. Not 100% true, but you see what I am saying. No matter how much force you exert, you will lose some of it unless you are rooted or structured. By this rooting structure the opposing force is blocked and thrown back in the original direction of exerted force, which can increase the power of your punch considerably.

5

[QUOTE=kung fu fighter;1016836]So you also pump the hips like lovemaking similar to Robert and Alan Orr, but more subtle to link the legs and whole body in your arm movements?[/QUOTE]

I propose you reread my post again.

Same with those who thinking sinking solve all the details issues, you over simplified the issue. IMHO making an assumption of hip is the central of universe.

Go look at TST nim lik. How did he do it? Does he use hip? Or how does he uses his hip.

6

[QUOTE=Hendrik;1016841]Go look at TST nim lik. How did he do it? Does he use hip? Or how does he uses his hip.[/QUOTE]

Do you apply dissolving, hua jing and An jing similar to TST’s nim lik?

7

[QUOTE=kung fu fighter;1016852]Do you apply dissolving, hua jing and An jing similar to TST’s nim lik?[/QUOTE]

With all the posts including I offer you to fly to san jose which I have terminated yesterday,
Up to now, you need to realize you are missing some big parts on Jing cultivation basic.

find a good sifu and train you, those who has it has it via sifu’s coaching, invest both money and sweat. That is the reality.

Thinking reading some posts here and Q/A in the internet will know what it is is extremely impractical. so, if you are serious about it, baisi to a good sifu to coach you, i would here on not wasting your time to reply on something you will not be able to comprehend due to you dont have the needed foundation.

As for Hua Jing, those who does sinking and rooting and alignment cant get it. In Daoist term, it is a product of Wu Wei or NON Doing. it is not spiral, it is not send force to the ground, it is not align the knees or …etc. it is not even thinking how to push/press forward.
Those who has it will just let go and the hua jing is there.

8

[QUOTE=Hendrik;1016841]Go look at TST nim lik. How did he do it? Does he use hip? Or how does he uses his hip.[/QUOTE]

Is what you are doing the same as TST’s nim lik?

9

[QUOTE=Hendrik;1016817]As for how to handle the hip and knees and every joint of spine…etc, that is where the Six dimensional force vectors balancing comes in to play. anything excessive create problem…

…This also open up a topic called Kuen Choong or Seed of the martial art. Since as most know Cho gar has lots collection sets of different style, thus, my late sifu Cho Hong-Choy was very particular to how the set done according to the Kuen Choong.

…These days the term Kuen Choong seems like a vanished word.[/QUOTE]

Again you introduce yet another term here Hendrik, and they too are familiar with me. I’ve been following how you discuss the 6 dimensional/vector forces and now you also mention a ‘seed’, kuen choong, which I have tried to discuss a few times before.

I find it interesting that you throw the convo into this as the thread is all about hip movement!

[QUOTE=Sihing73;1016817]I have been training in American Kunto Silat and they use a very interesting Hip Rotation to generate power. I do not see any reason to be unable to use this same dynamic with my Wing Chun.

After reading someone post about Andreas and Hendrick using they hip gyrations (akin to love making) I was curious and wanted to see if I could learn move about how they are using the hips.

I would really prefer to keep this discussion on tact and not diverge to other things or name calling etc. If that happens I will delete the thread. [/QUOTE]

From my initial impression of Silat (Pencak) and discussing the core body mechanics with a guy in the UK called Steve Benitez, it was quite obvious that we shared very similar hei gung practises. The Silat was more dance orientated and flowery to the onlooker, but the venom was there in every attack and the snake energy was constantly moving. In fact it was similar in some sense to the BJJ drills I have seen, and you must be aware of the anaconda influence in BJJ right?

I came to the conclusion that we shared energy drills and exercises but we just applied the ideas differently. The Wing Chun energy has elements of crane too, and the Silat tended to be paired with the Tiger.

Just some thoughts…

10

FWIW- I don;y think silat has much to do with wing chun.
I do not overemphasize or underemphasize the hips.

joy chaudhuri

11

[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;1016924]Again you introduce yet another term here Hendrik, and they too are familiar with me.

I’ve been following how you discuss the 6 dimensional/vector forces and now you also mention a ‘seed’, kuen choong, which I have tried to discuss a few times before.

I find it interesting that you throw the convo into this as the thread is all about hip movement!

.[/QUOTE]

Seed is 100% related to hip movement.
I dont understand what you mean by throw the convo.

So, what is the relationship between 6 dimentional force vectors and Kuen choong? or seed?

12

[QUOTE=Sihing73;1016797]Hello,

This is mainly for Robert and Hendrick and Andreas if he is on the board.

I have been training in American Kunto Silat and they use a very interesting Hip Rotation to generate power. I do not see any reason to be unable to use this same dynamic with my Wing Chun.

After reading someone post about Andreas and Hendrick using they hip gyrations (akin to love making) I was curious and wanted to see if I could learn move about how they are using the hips.

I would really prefer to keep this discussion on tact and not diverge to other things or name calling etc. If that happens I will delete the thread.

Robert, Hendrick, Adreas, feel free to PM or contact me off line to discuss.[/QUOTE]

Dave,

Do you have any clips of this art? I looked up youtube and saw this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ViUNBp63uS8

Looks like some southern fist with Monkey style and Ba Gua. I remember seeing Paul deThouars and thinking some of his movements in application were like WCK, but the “diving” look of the body was different.

Other Pentjak Silat looked more like Karate or Ba Gua or native Indonesian stuff. I remember seeing Eddi Jafri in NYC and some demos by Herman Suwanda a while back.

I do not think they have the same core as us.

13

Hello Robert,

That clip is of the first five forms and is being performed by a Malibar Guru.

The first form, Djuru Satu, is a lot like Wing Chun in that it stressed attack and going forward. The body mechanics are different as there is more turning and twisting, so yes the core is different. However, I am wondering just how different as it is said that Yip Man taught a kneeling horse prior to coming to Hong Kong.

What interests me the most, at the moment, is the utilization of the hip for short range power. In the Silat aspects one draws in first and then expands, kind of like Hsing Yi to my way of thinking.

The way this art is presented reminds me of how I was first taught Wing Chun in terms of concepts and intent. The emphasis is on attacking both upper and lower levels at the same time. Something I have heard of a lot but rarely see applied effectively in Wing Chun.

Many of the concepts do seem to lend themselves easily to Wing Chun, although the flavor is definetely unique.

In any event I am enjoying the exploration.

14

Dave,

I am glad you are enjoying the Silat. It is an interesting art. I do not see the similarity to Xing Yi, at least what i studied.

The Gwai ma is still different - it is a WCK Gwai Ma - executed while using WCK core mechanics. But then Silat is not WCK.

Thanks for sharing!

15

Hello Robert,

AKTS is not the same as most Silat as it is the Kuntao which is stressed.

When I refer to being similar to Hsing Yi I mean in how one is taught to load or draw in and then expand when striking. For example, one pulls the hands to the side and then punches. Of course, this loses a bit in translation as it is not that simplistic. Better to be shown in person. But I have seen Hsing Yi guys kind of roll around an incoming punch and then uncoil and explode outward. Very interesting and I imagine takes a great deal of skill and sensitivity.

From what I gather, Silat is less forgiving of mistakes than Kuntao. Kuntao seems to be more flowing as well. But, this is just from what I have observed. Of course, Kuntao is a blend of the Kung Fu and other arts.

16

Hendrik or Robert,

How is dissolve, hua jing, and an jing any different from TST’s nim lik concept in the clips below?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SSTrANc1Gn0&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=czC3XdVNzgo&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0POu0pxzO28&feature=related

17

KFF,

I saw the clips that were up finally.

As I have said, TST’s WCK has this capability and Instructor Tony Psaila has attainment and is teaching it well. The late Jim Fung was also well accomplished.

The terms are descriptive - but do you see the mechanics? Nothing to see…

Hawkins used to say to me, “The theory is fantastic, but can you do it?”

So you writing all over this forum to get confirmation is useless. There are no mechanics to see, only skill to attain.

Can you do it? If you can, there’s no need to write me.

18

[QUOTE=chusauli;1017182]KFF,

I saw the clips that were up finally.

As I have said, TST’s WCK has this capability and Instructor Tony Psaila has attainment and is teaching it well. The late Jim Fung was also well accomplished.

The terms are descriptive - but do you see the mechanics? Nothing to see…

Hawkins used to say to me, “The theory is fantastic, but can you do it?”

So you writing all over this forum to get confirmation is useless. There are no mechanics to see, only skill to attain.

Can you do it? If you can, there’s no need to write me.[/QUOTE]

Thanks for the reply Robert,

                                      You are absolutely correct, I was not looking to learn this skill from our dissussion on this forum, that would be impossible.  I have already attained this skill many years ago. I was just looking for confirmation to find if what I was doing was the same as what hendrik discribes as Dissolve, Hua jing, and An jing.

This Skill is nothing new, but few have it. When I trained with Master Ho Kam Ming in the mid 90’s, he definately had it, from what I can see WSL and TST also have it. Master Joe Ng in fut sao wing chun also have it. Master Ho just referred to it as elbow force and hong Jai (control). TST refer’s to it as Nim Lik, Hendrik refers to it as 6 directional force vector and dissolve. so you can see how the terminology can be confusing, since it all different.

So to confirm what Hendrik discribes as Dissolve, Hua jing, And An jing is the exact same type of force handling/power generation as what Tony Psaila demo’s in the clip above?

19

Navin,
I gotta tell you dude, you been around the block enough and even competed in full contact fighting.
If what you are doing is working for YOU then that is all that is needed.
There are no secrets bro, seriously.
Many people have words, few have skill.
Be one of those with skill.

20

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1017188]Navin,
I gotta tell you dude, you been around the block enough and even competed in full contact fighting.
If what you are doing is working for YOU then that is all that is needed.
There are no secrets bro, seriously.
Many people have words, few have skill.
Be one of those with skill.[/QUOTE]

Hey thanks Paul,

                       The problem I have with this stuff is when someone trys to make something out to be mysterious, when it is in fact something very simple and can be explained like in the videos that I posted. I find it's a very imature and selfish way of thinking, no wonder why wing chun fighters has not advanced to the level of MMA fighters. There are no mysterious concepts in MMA, the one who trains smarter and harder will be better skilled. In order for wing chun to advance into the next generation everything needs to be put in the open on the table and evaluated objectively (NO SECRETS ALLOWED). Other wise the system will die out and be replaced by more practical systems. It is up to our generation to fix this before it's too late.