Kathy Jo:
Since we’re on the subject of attitudes…how come I never see you complain about the smug “Good Wing Chun doesn’t need anything that I don’t do” attitude that a bunch of the more conservative types around here display?
As if their undocumented and unseen Wing Chun expertise and knowledge is sitting on a mountain top?
That’s a very condescending attitude also…isn’t it?
Re: A ship in a bottle
Originally posted by Ernie
They fact that I’m spending time typing this instead of discussing training methods or results with all of you is dissapointing indeed
I couldn’t agree more. Then why do we?
No one here is a professional fighter
Very few will ever fight
Even less will be attacked
All we can do is enjoy the training process, based on our own reality, the circle of life we walk in, this will guide out desired results for training
Touche. Of course this begs the question of what all the constant fuss and needling is about.
I would much rather learn from 1000 minds that are living 1000 different lives and learn what they discover from training and living
I agree here too. How about we put our focus there, and “just do it” then?
So tell me what was the latest gem you discovered in your training
No miracles there. I’m acutely aware I’m the turtle surrounded by hares. For me the only real miracle lies is persistence, patience, and constantly looking for my own edges, and challenging my limits as feasibly as I can, day by day. That, and making a point to continue enjoying the process of training every day, and for the long haul.
Oh, and I really like the increasing impact I’m experiencing of applying the “cam” motion using my ulna and radius to upset my partner or momentarily change forces to gain time or advantage; at least when I can get the feel and timing right, LOL. I’ve also learned that Synvisc and physical therapy are terrific training aids - everyone’s personal “gems” will vary, LOL.
Regards,
Originally posted by Hitman
Sifu Duncan Leung said that he had to spend 5 -7 hours a day for four & a half years to learn the whole wing chun system.
Train in effficient and effective fighting systems and you won’t have spend 5-7 hours a day and sacrifice the other parts of your life to become good.
Bravo kj and Ernie!
The thing is - we all have different reasons we do wing chun, and we all have different conceptions of what wing chun is and isn’t.
Terence - I’ve got a funny story for you. A freind of mine went through post-grad teacher training, and as a physical education part of that, had to teach a group of kids how to swim. She couldn’t swim herself - but managed to teach the class fine - resulting in a pool full of kids sucessfully swimming! How’s that for results lol…
KJ,
i think in good spirit [ originally ]
many shared there growth and wake up calls by way of pressure training ,
this is a fact and this path will always work
so those doing it are passionate since they have the truth on there side !
but not every one can or is willing to subject there body and mind to that type of brutal honesty
so we must be honest in our expectations and in our results
problem is when people are not being honest with themselves
about
1 not everyone can walk this walk so understand they can’t relate to what your talking about , or they have been told it’s not important by some one they look up to so they refuse to hear you , this messes with there faith and foundation
2 your truth is no one elses all you can do is say , hey this is what worked for me and those around me this is what we discovered
now it has become shut up you suck
but the funny thing is none of you are my enemies and i’m not out to get you so who cares who has the biggest balls !
so what might have started out as a good hearted expression of personal methods to grow has become twisted
the process of adding pressure to make coal into a diamond
has become if you don’t do it this way or that way you suck
pressure can be added in steps , those steps can lead us to each other
by way of understanding and being honest with our level and how much we are willing to put in
i should be able to equally discuss with you the intent of the elbow in chi sau
and equally discuss the angle of cutting in on a full power thai kick with victor
different levels of pressure
same level of respect
you would not contact me for my knowledge of wing chun history
i have a very low level of skill there
as for gems
well like you since i have been exposed to kryptonite and my super human speed and power are reduced to slow painful motions
position and structure have been my saving grace
moving at half speed eating my way in slowly , pivoting on the point of contact , loading and becoming empty , using the negitive side of the the triangle [ free o pressure side ] instead of cutting angles
fun stuff
“Train in effficient and effective fighting systems and you won’t have to spend 5-7 hours a day and sacrifice the other parts of your life to become good.” (KF)
Barking up the wrong tree..many people here in NYC…including some tough karate fighters - as well as our very own Phil Redmond - can tell you from first-hand eye-witness knowledge that Duncan Leung - as a streetfighter - was one very tough hombre back in the 70’s.
Very efficient and Very effective Wing Chun fighter.
Sometimes it’s hard to take, when all those years wasted on the quick fix and the illusion of superiority, only to find that its not so, learning the wing chun system in record time and proud of it, so much missed and so much is lost, to the point that we must put self in the way. Good wing chun is nothing more than the understanding of principles and concepts explained in detail from the fundamentals of SLT. But if you are in a hurry, you will never see it.
Ali Hamad Rahim.
“learning the wing chun system in record time and proud of it…”
WHO might that be?
Hi Victor,
Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
[B]Kathy Jo:
Since we’re on the subject of attitudes…how come I never see you complain about the smug “Good Wing Chun doesn’t need anything that I don’t do” attitude that a bunch of the more conservative types around here display?
As if their undocumented and unseen Wing Chun expertise and knowledge is sitting on a mountain top?
That’s a very condescending attitude also…isn’t it? [/B]
Good question. The answer is pretty complex. In part it’s …
a) Because I don’t see most of those people you refer to “pressing” their “attitude” on others as much as defending the right to have a perspective and exchange ideas in a civil and decent way on this forum. Furthermore, in many cases they post as they do in an effort to bring at least some balance to the forum discussions. Much of their “complaining” is at essence more about general tone and and how people on the forum treat each other, as it is about defense of a position on a given subject. And in that much I heartily agree with them; there’s definitely something amiss of late. I am less concerned about extremes of position, than in how people use those extremes like weapons against one another generally or individually.
b) You may have noticed I didn’t come out defending the “all you need is in Wing chun” either. I really didn’t comment on it of late at all, one way or the other.
c) There is a loud enough communal “voice” on the incompleteness and uselessness of Wing Chun to balance out any perceived extremes in the perception about Wing Chun’s completeness. So it didn’t look like you guys were in dire need of my help to balance that one out.
d) Some of what we see people arguing (from both extremes) is more a function of limitations or styles of communication, rather than a full representation of what they may actually believe or are trying to say. What we see on the page may be even ****her [further … darn filter] from what they really “do.” I tend to look for substance and meaning more than the literal words on a page. I try to ask myself “What is this person really trying to say?” I’m not always successful, but I try.
If I were to make a general suggestion, we’d all do better if more people tried asking themselves the same question. And kudos to those who do and have made great efforts to “listen” and “understand” more … there have been a few of you, and it hasn’t all gone unnoticed.
e) Time is also a driving factor in picking my battles and contributions, as it should be for others. Tilting at windmills, pressing my perspective, or insisting to be considered as “right” is not generally a good use of my time, at least when I am able to recognize it as such.
f) I don’t think poor behavior on anyone’s part is appropriate, though being human, we’re all guilty of it at times. I don’t presume to be some perfect and unbiased arbiter either (besides on this forum that’s Sandman’s job, LOL), nor will I perceive everything that others do (though I do catch quite a lot). I confess leanings toward underdogs in discussion (call it a lifelong passion, LOL, and not limited to Wing Chun), and regardless of “position” argued; based on the sheer volume and energy of your postings alone, I would hardly consider some of you fellows as underdogs. Still, two wrongs don’t make a right (I’m talking behavior, not position argued). Neither does one unchallenged or lopsided wrong make a right; so there’s a bit of a catch-22, and pick-your-poison of late. An alternative is just to give up, and abandon the the forum as lost. Sometimes the right solution to a problem isn’t so clear. <sigh>
FWIW, I do in fact believe what we are observing of late is not truly so much an argument over positions or beliefs, but rather a combination of frustrations and hopes for bringing sanity back to the forum. I believe it is also a grassroots refutation of the notion that most of us should just shut up and go away, as has been stated several times in so many words.
g) If you’re actually asking what I think of the complete or incomplete Wing Chun idea, crosstraining, etc, that’s an entirely different suite of matters than the issue of forum behaviors. You may notice, I rarely “push” my ideas on others, though on days where there is a more civil or welcoming tone on the forum, I may offer some of my thoughts, observations, or experiences in good faith, and to be taken or left FWLIW and as seen fit by my fellow readers.
h) Regarding my own thinking about Wing Chun being complete or incomplete, it really doesn’t matter. As Ernie and others have said so many times, the only thing that really counts is what we do, and what we can do. Without greater context of both meaning and application it’s mainly a semantics game. Mostly I’ve left that topic to the “experts” for debate, LOL. Since you asked though, and FWLIW, I’ll take your question in good faith and try over the next few days to offer up a few of my own and varied thoughts on the subject.
i) Because the issue of Wing Chun’s completeness is far from the only one being debated or being lumped together across the “lines in the sand.” We’ve got the completeness vs. incompleteness issue, the what to do about it or do nothing issue, MMA vs. Wing Chun issue, Wing Chun vs. BJJ vs. every other method of groundfighting issue, the fighter vs. non-fighter issue, the sports fighter vs. personal defense vs. do it for fun issue, the you’ve got no right to speak issue, the let’s see your video so we can pick apart your training, your skill, your lineage, and your credibility issue, etc. ad nauseum. So much to choose from, yet so little that actually interests me. Well, other than in seeing what makes other people tick, LOL.
j) I didn’t presume it mattered much to anyone what I might think on the subject. Especially in light of the proliferation of posts already on the topic.
My larger concern on the forum is really not what people believe, how they train, what their capabilities are, their preferences in Wing Chun, interest in other martial arts, who can beat up who, etc. My main concern continues to be how forum members treat each other. It may not be easy, but with some effort it is possible to treat each other with a modicum of decency and human respect even when disagreeing with one another. Building poor relations builds a poor environment for interaction, making positive and constructive interchange increasingly unlikely. Worse, and unfortunately, forum behaviors sometimes lead to real, if really stupid, problems between people in “real” life too.
It boils down to this: If people value forums like this one as a potential means of fruitful exchange (on line) or connection with others (on and off line), then the forum itself and its membership must be treated and maintained with some degree of mutual care and respect. This is “my house” too, and when I see people carelessly or persistently trying to make a mess of it, that tends to get my attention. We can debate how much I know or don’t know about Wing Chun, but I do know a little something about human nature and interactive group cultures.
So that’s in part why I didn’t complain directly to the “smug conservatives.” I could go on, but it would likely max out KFO’s present capacity. 
I’ll get back to you with some of my thoughts on the wholesomeness of Wing Chun thing as time allows.
Regards,
Good post Kathy Jo!
“Because I don’t see most of those people you refer to “pressing” their “attitude” on others as much as defending the right to have a perspective and exchange ideas in a civil and decent way on this forum…” (KJ)
WELL I see that attitude as the height of hypocrisy and false pride - as it is usually these same people who can demonstrate nothing and explain nothing…
when the rubber really hits the road.
AND THEY DO “press their attitude” on others - and do it very often.
Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
[B]“Because I don’t see most of those people you refer to “pressing” their “attitude” on others as much as defending the right to have a perspective and exchange ideas in a civil and decent way on this forum…” (KJ)
WELL I see that attitude as the height of hypocrisy and false pride - as it is usually these same people who can demonstrate nothing and explain nothing…
when the rubber really hits the road.
AND THEY DO “press their attitude” on others - and do it very often. [/B]
Are you feeling persecuted in any ways?..Why do you care so much about “these same people” :rolleyes: and about what they care or not to “demonstrate”?..Why do you care about us,“hypocrits” anyway?..
Michel:
Don’t feel persecuted in the least…
Do feel as though I have an obligation to speak up…and speak up forcefully…
when I hear so much nonsense.
Doing Wing Chun 30 years…
started wrestling 12 years before that…
been in streetfights (from time-to-time) for the last 48 years…
Can’t stand still and listen to some of this garbage - when I know it’s garbage.
Vacillate between being tired of all this crap (and start to ignore it) - and being p***ed off to the point of having to say something.
C’est la vie.
C’est la smile! =)
Smile, though your heart is aching
Smile, even though it’s breaking
When there are clouds in the sky
You’ll get by…
If you smile
With your fear and sorrow
Smile and maybe tomorrow
You’ll find that life is still worthwhile
If you just…
Light up your face with gladness
Hide every trace of sadness
Although a tear may be ever so near
That’s the time you must keep on trying
Smile, what’s the use of crying
You’ll find that life is still worthwhile
If you just…
Smile, though your heart is aching
Smile, even though it’s breaking
When there are clouds in the sky
You’ll get by…
If you smile
Through your fear and sorrow
Smile and maybe tomorrow
You’ll find that life is still worthwhile
If you just smile…
That’s the time you must keep on trying
Smile, what’s the use of crying
You’ll find that life is still worthwhile
If you just smile
Smiling gives you wrinkles.
Perhaps that’s why people who have 1 eyelid smile so much! =)
Re: A ship in a bottle
Originally posted by Ernie
The most disappointing thing for of late [in response to James]
Is the fact that we are so polarized as a group in general?
The fact that we all agree that the wing Chun system in theory and on paper is a truly wonderful and thought provoking view of what combat could be.
Yet when it comes to application and training methods people scurry in all directions.
Ernie,
You are right, this is THE big disappointment. We seem to have lost sight of the goal and become enamoured with “being right” in our position, rather than trying to find “the truth”. I don’t like it.
Quite frankly I think we aren’t even really trying to understand each other’s position, but rather immediately attack a person based on which “camp” we believe they fall into. I’m guilty of that as well. :o I might add…So I’m not trying to point fingers here.
So, having said that, I am going to make an effort to be more open minded, less confrontational. Maybe a nice Cuba Libre would do the trick. 
Cheers,
Re: Re: A ship in a bottle
Originally posted by Matrix
[B]Ernie,
You are right, this is THE big disappointment. We seem to have lost sight of the goal and become enamoured with “being right” in our position, rather than trying to find “the truth”. I don’t like it.
Quite frankly I think we aren’t even really trying to understand each other’s position, but rather immediately attack a person based on which “camp” we believe they fall into. I’m guilty of that as well. :o I might add…So I’m not trying to point fingers here.
So, having said that, I am going to make an effort to be more open minded, less confrontational. Maybe a nice Cuba Libre would do the trick.
Cheers, [/B]
ah refreshing !
bill i sent you an email
Originally posted by kj
It boils down to this: If people value forums like this one as a potential means of fruitful exchange (on line) or connection with others (on and off line), then the forum itself and its membership must be treated and maintained with some degree of mutual care and respect. This is “my house” too, and when I see people carelessly or persistently trying to make a mess of it, that tends to get my attention. We can debate how much I know or don’t know about Wing Chun, but I do know a little something about human nature and interactive group cultures.
Hasn’t EVERYONE read “Lord of the Flies”?
When everyone is free to express themselves however they feel it’s not that difficult to fall into anarchy and then the fat kid gets his head cracked open.
Originally posted by Edmund
Hasn’t EVERYONE read “Lord of the Flies”?
I love that book. 