A disappointing Observation

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
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Although only a fairly new observer to this forum, with only under a year of exposure, I’m finding a sense of superiority by those on here that in one way claim to be Wing Chun practitioners but in another sense don’t really feel that way just for the fact that they think they know something all of us “Tradionalist or Theoriatians Non Fighters” don’t know. Once the labels start to fly then you know the Ego is talking. I found this forum by a reference and was initially drawn to it to refute some comments made by another on this forum, but after some investigation I found it a place I could learn from and debate a few things in general, but for the last few months I feel like I have to actually defend Wing Chun’s worthiness as a fighting/combat art. Why is this so? Because lots on here think most WC practitioners are lazy? OR Because Wing Chun lacks training or skills in certain ranges of combat, just like the one’s the MMA want us to learn, but fail to see there limitations also? How can anyone know exactly what thousands of other people are doing, especially when it comes to something as personal as one’s choice of Martial Art? It’s great to debate and discuss differences and commonalities, but the general discussions on here usually end up being an “I’m right and your wrong” debate if favour of Wing Chun’s weakness instead of strengths, to which makes us all look like idiots. Regardless of what one has experienced, no one has all the answers to everyone’s questions because no one know’s the individual experiences that all of us have had, and even if you did it would be hard to prove on an internet forum like this, person to person is the only way to really influence others to a great degree, which is probably why the May event was first conceived in the first place, but as expected a few on here have taken charge and re-directed the original path of the event (a get together for us to learn more and appreciate one another better) and made it into what they wanted, a sparring/fighting/lets find out who’s who event with this rule and that, and we will only fight at the level you want to, whatever that means. What will that prove if the full intention on one’s skills may never be allowed to be seen? And if the skills are let loose, then Ego’s will be bruised for sure.

It’s disappointing to say the least as we should be pulling together instead of falling apart like we are. Although I don’t really think this forum will have that much deep impact on the future of Wing Chun and its popularity, it just seems a real shame to see the lack of respect shown for such a great MA as is shown on this forum at times

James

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While we are posting “disappointing observations”, here is mine. Originally posted on a different thread. But it seems appropriate here:

Originally posted by Matrix
James,
That’s the way I see it as well.

If we’re going to say as Airdrawndagger suggests, that there’s a WC “good” and a boxing “good”, and that one “good” is not as good as the other, then we’re playing word games.

—I agree with you guys as well. If the implication by some is that “good” boxing is better than “good” Wing Chun, then why haven’t they dropped Wing Chun and gone whole-heartedly into boxing? We keep hearing how wonderful MMA training is, so why haven’t these same people dropped their Wing Chun and focused on MMA? I agree with something that James said awhile back as well. He pointed out that it sure seems strange that you can come to a Wing Chun forum and end up having to defend Wing Chun! This is probably a skewed impression, but it sometimes seems that there are some here that don’t think much of Wing Chun, but still practice it and feel like they need to change it! Why not just skip the Wing Chun and focus on boxing, or kickboxing, or BJJ, or catch wrestling, etc? If Wing Chun is so awful…why continue to practice it? If boxing or MMA has all the answers, then why not pursue that? The typical neophyte to martial arts that happened upon this forum with the intent to find out more about Wing Chun would probably go away thinking “that’s obviously not something I want to study!” Terence laughed at me on another thread because I didn’t like the “tone.” Well…there is a difference between saying that “Wing Chun is a great martial art and here are some things to consider that can make it better” and saying “Wing Chun is worthless and not a martial art at all unless you are doing these specific things…” We get too much of the later attitude and not enough of the former. It does make a difference. The “in your face” attitude may be warranted on occasion to make a point and wake people up, but to have it here day after day in darn near every thread gets real old real fast and people simple start to ignore it. If you scan through the most recent posts you will find many of the “regulars” missing. Coincidence? Or did they just get tired of the recent tone in the forum?

Keith

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**It’s not WCK – the method – that is in question, but the attitudes and the associated training methods prevalent in what I call “the culture of WCK” (or most TCMAs). That’s two different things. And the “labels” of nonswimmer or theoretican/nonfihgter reflect those prevailing attitudes/approach towards training. I can’t make anyone a nonswimmer; the fact they don’t swim is what makes them a nonswimmer. Recognizing that fact isn’t “labeling”.

**Criticising these attitudes is not a criticism of WCK; nor does that criticism weaken WCK. A fighter only gets better by having their weaknesses (continually) pointed out to him. Those prevalent attitudes seriously limit one’s potential for development, and only by recognizing them and changing can one make significant progress. Ignoring those weaknesses, putting our heads in the sand, will have certain consequences.

KPM wrote:

We keep hearing how wonderful MMA training is, so why haven’t these same people dropped their Wing Chun and focused on MMA?

**One major lesson of NHB fights is that to be a “good” fighter – that is, successful agaisnt other “good” fighters – we need to be well-rounded. This is the point of MMA: to become well-rounded (to fill the gaps in one’s fighting ability). One doesn’t “drop” their BJJ and focus on MMA, for example; rather, one keeps their BJJ and by cross-training (in other arts, hence MMA), they become better, well-rounded fighters. Same with WCK. Does one need to cross-train? Of course not. There are many people satisfied with just boxing or just doing BJJ or just doing WCK. Yet they recognize the limitations of doing that.

I agree with something that James said awhile back as well. He pointed out that it sure seems strange that you can come to a Wing Chun forum and end up having to defend Wing Chun! This is probably a skewed impression, but it sometimes seems that there are some here that don’t think much of Wing Chun, but still practice it and feel like they need to change it! Why not just skip the Wing Chun and focus on boxing, or kickboxing, or BJJ, or catch wrestling, etc? If Wing Chun is so awful…why continue to practice it? If boxing or MMA has all the answers, then why not pursue that?

**As I said above, it’s not WCK that is being criticized, but the attitude of some (most) of its “practitioners”.

The typical neophyte to martial arts that happened upon this forum with the intent to find out more about Wing Chun would probably go away thinking “that’s obviously not something I want to study!”

**It depends on their goal. If their goal is to really learn and martial art and develop fighting skill (become good swimmers), the prevailing “culture of WCK” will actually prevent it.

Terence laughed at me on another thread because I didn’t like the “tone.” Well…there is a difference between saying that “Wing Chun is a great martial art and here are some things to consider that can make it better” and saying “Wing Chun is worthless and not a martial art at all unless you are doing these specific things…” We get too much of the later attitude and not enough of the former. It does make a difference.

**But there is a significant difference in meaning between your two statements – the former suggests that what one is doing is good, but there are possible improvements while the latter suggests there are necessary requirements to developing fighting skill.

The “in your face” attitude may be warranted on occasion to make a point and wake people up, but to have it here day after day in darn near every thread gets real old real fast and people simple start to ignore it. If you scan through the most recent posts you will find many of the “regulars” missing. Coincidence? Or did they just get tired of the recent tone in the forum?

**I’m sure some of the theoreticans are tired of the “tone”, or more accurately, their attitude (the culture of WCK) being criticized and it being pointed out that there is no evidence to support their beliefs. Persons who fight, who actually do WCK, aren’t going to be put off by a tone of “prove it” or “where is the evidence”. The only persons put off by such a “tone” are those that don’t do it, that can’t do it, that have no evidence.

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Because 99% of the people here are more concerned with how others train than how they themselves train :slight_smile:

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Who is to blame? Is it the teacher’s fault for promoting wing chun, that it is a invincible art or a least the art that he or she teaches, but when they come down to reality and find out that their wing chun does not work in certain situation, they come cashing down hard from disappointment, and then only they can find the right answers. Is it the way teachers promote students too a higher level when only learning there wing chun from videotape or seminars? The student only sees their sifu once or twice a year and maybe workout with their sifu 10 to 15 min personally (free) when they see him or her. At the seminars most can not afford private lesson with their famous sifu, let alone sponsor a seminar which cost well over $4.000 a visit. But yet still sick out there chest saying that they are a personal student of this or that famous sifu. Do their sifu know that they feel that way about the system that he or she teaches is incomplete, of course not? Because its all about money and promotion. If the sifu finds out how the student feels he may not be around much longer as a top student. Then all of those photos and videos taking at the seminars will not stand up as good promotional gimmicks. That’s what they are “gimmick” when you haven’t learned or cant do anything that you were taught, or even use the system in the street the way it was taught. IF THEY DROP WING CHUN, THEY DROP THE LIGHT ON WHO THEY ARE, FAR AS THEIR “FAMOUS CONNECTION”, THEY ONLY NEED THAT, NOT WING CHUN.

ps.

If you are connected who cares if you can fight or not, all you have too do is talk loud enough, until the walls come falling down. You can’t fix that “the point that you can not fight”, if you try you will only keep hurting yourself. Because the point has been made clear to everyone, but to ones self, and that’s to bad.

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com

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Let me tell you what one of my disappointments is, James…

The fact that you talk alot but have posted nothing on the VIDEO FOOTAGE thread that even comes close to reality fighting.

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Originally posted by t_niehoff
[B]A fighter only gets better by having their weaknesses (continually) pointed out to him.

Persons who fight, who actually do WCK, aren’t going to be put off by a tone of “prove it” or “where is the evidence”.

The only persons put off by such a “tone” are those that don’t do it, that can’t do it, that have no evidence. [/B]

These are all erroneous misleading statements wrapped in the guise of vague generalizations.

  1. A fighter CAN get better in other ways. Having their weaknesses continually pointed out certainly helps, and COULD speed things up, but it is not the ONLY way and pointing out weakness in and of itself does NOTHING unless the fighter actually TRAINS to overcome those weaknesses.

  2. I know (personally and on this forum) several people who DO “fight” (whatever that means) and who “DO” Wing Chun, who ARE put off by the confrontational “prove it to me” attitude some display on this forum. To say that those people aren’t going to be put off is to once again make vague generalizations, and incorrect ones at that.

  3. See number 2, and add to that that I also know people who do not “fight” who could care less about these posts, which blasts yet another hole in those statements.

Wouldn’t it be great if people actually made statements that were thought out and… hmmmm… PROVEABLE? Because when someone does the exact same thing that they accuse others of doing it just makes their observations meaningless.

-Levi

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Rene,

I don’t care how anyone trains or whether they believe their oral tradition or whatever, my concern is about the nature of the claims they make: is there support, evidence, proof (results) rather than conjecture, hearsay, belief (theory)?

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Originally posted by t_niehoff
[B]Rene,

I don’t care how anyone trains or whether they believe their oral tradition or whatever, my concern is about the nature of the claims they make: is there support, evidence, proof (results) rather than conjecture, hearsay, belief (theory)? [/B]

Everything is heresay on a internet forum. When someone relates fact, as it means to them personally, to others it is heresay.

James

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Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
[B]Let me tell you what one of my disappointments is, James…

The fact that you talk alot but have posted nothing on the VIDEO FOOTAGE thread that even comes close to reality fighting. [/B]

It’s coming Victor, but it’s not the top priority on my list.

James

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I agree with Levi somewhat. I’m here mostly for fun, conversations, and education. Lately it has become more a hilltop fight for some beenies of thought. One of the incontestable sign of maturity is the ability to turn down the volume knob. =)

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A ship in a bottle

Or for some a Ferrari in a glass boxes!

The most disappointing thing for of late [in response to James]
Is the fact that we are so polarized as a group in general?
The fact that we all agree that the wing Chun system in theory and on paper is a truly wonderful and thought provoking view of what combat could be.
Yet when it comes to application and training methods people scurry in all directions.

Some seem very enamored with building this historical prototype from some ancient blue print of what supposedly was efficient and effective, refining every detail, perfecting every curve, carving away until they can sit back and admire the form and design, and claim some form of accomplishment.

Sifu, master, or grandmaster of the perfect ship in the glass bottle.

A ship that’s very essence was born by a need to survive rough and turbulent seas. To fight, maim, murder, structurally to cut glide, borrow power and have short-range explosive weapons.
A ship that could adapt and be self sufficient, navigate the unknown and make home from each journey with new discoveries, wiser and richer from the experience.

The ship builders could build better ships based on the information gained from each of these travels. From the unknowns that came up, form the things that shattered their versions of what they thought was the previous perfect ship. Best structural design, best short range weapon, best training method

If it were not for those that were willing to go out and fail then there would have been no future advancements

The ship would stay in the bottle; the Ferrari [technologically advanced version] would stay in the glass box

Never to be taking for its test drive never to be pushed to it’s limits never to be broken down to see if more refinement was needed

Just stagnant ship builders, Ferrari designers, sifu’s, masters and grand masters

What is really disappointing?
Is the lack of creative fire for progressive development, the fact that we even argue on the nesesicity of experimenting with different training methods, instead of sharing our results and progress and failure?

The fact that we cannot even decide on what a fight is, that we are so full of predetermined brain washed statements that we can not formulate our own honest individual thoughts, for fear of looking bad to our sifu or lineage or students.

The fact that people who in there heart know they will never test or push there skills will argue tooth and nail about results they have never experienced.

The fact that people who do test think that there version of testing is the only way to get results so they block out other’s ideas or observations

They fact that I’m spending time typing this instead of discussing training methods or results with all of you is dissapointing indeed

No one here is a professional fighter
Very few will ever fight
Even less will be attacked
All we can do is enjoy the training process, based on our own reality, the circle of life we walk in, this will guide out desired results for training

I would much rather learn from 1000 minds that are living 1000 different lives and learn what they discover from training and living

Then just repeat what I have been told like a mindless parrot or news reporter reading of a teleprompter

Everybody has a story to tell, just have to be honest enough to tell it and humble enough to listen

So tell me what was the latest gem you discovered in your training

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I don’t care how anyone trains or whether they believe their oral tradition or whatever, my concern is about the nature of the claims they make: is there support, evidence, proof (results) rather than conjecture, hearsay, belief (theory)?

No. Of course not. No double blind studies. No separating two twins at birth, raising one on a steady diet of slow forms, endless chi sao, and lots of Hei talk, and the other on nothing but progressive resistance.

People just talk. They do it all the time. They know the greatest rib joint in the US. They have the best movie or book ever made. Blustering is as old as, well, Adam’s pick up lines to Eve…

Many people are not in MA for anything resembling reality. They get enough of that at work and at CNN. They want escapism, and MA, for a variety of reasons, is their escapism of choice.

–

BTW - My current preferred method of improvement in freestyle under resistance while being watched by an expert who then gives me specific solutions to problems and things I need to improve. I isolate one thing at a time and train until it is no longer a problem, or has been improved, then move on to the next thing.

It’s the best way since all the greatest people do it that way, going back to the First Emperor…

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Ernie makes the kind of sense that does.

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Please read my thread on the shalion kung fu forum - why not so many people can use their martial arts in a fight

Sifu Ross’s thread on the kung fu forum - who is to blame

Whether wing chun is a great fighting art or not is totally depending on its practitioners. Sifu Duncan Leung said that he had to spend 5 -7 hours a day for four & a half years to learn the whole wing chun system. He also had to test out his wing chun on people. This caused his academic results to suffer.
How many wing chun practitioners are willing to spend that much time in order to learn wing chun? The answer is not many.
This may explain why so many wing chun practitioners’ skills and understanding of wing chun are very limited.
I used to spend 2-2.5 hours a day training, 7 days a week for 2 years. I could not even apply a single wing chun technique against weak opponents during sparring matches. However, I could beat them up easily by forgetting about wing chun.
Is it mean wing chun is a rubbish fighting arts? No is the answer. This only means that I have not been taught properly and have not be shown how to apply wing chun in a fight. After spending a long time working out how to apply wing chun in a fight by trial and error - this means getting hit by my training partner. I could now apply some of my wing chun techniques in sparring matches.
If you want to make wing chun work, then you have to make a lot of sacrifices and testing it out. Otherwise, you will never know whether can you apply YOUR wing chun at the moment you need it most. By the time you got the answer it may be too late to do you any good. Any one can talk, but can you do it when facing a lunatic who wants to kill you. I know that I cannot do it, so I will run.

Hitman

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Re: A ship in a bottle

Originally posted by Ernie
So tell me what was the latest gem you discovered in your training

That there is still more to discover and learn in my WC. Its really a never ending journey. Also that the Art works if you work the art and really understand it. Teaching does this for you, because when you do that you have to understand it and be able to not just perform it to a high quality personally but to be able to explain it to all types of people and have them understand it and be able to apply it, skillfully. Its not blind faith that I have in WC but a strong faith, with the realisization that anything can happen when it comes down to the crunch.

Good post by the way Ernie.

James

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Hitman…That was a good post.

Wing Chun strategies and techniques have to constantly be tested - pretty much right from day one.

Spending “years” learning this and that (forms, chi sao, wooden dummy, etc.) - without simultaneously testing what you learn AS YOU GO ALONG - against resisting opponents -

is a waste of a lot of time, energy, and money.

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Re: A disappointing Observation

My disappointment is with all of the WC people who criticize others’ fighting as “sloppy”, “kickboxing”, “no technique”, and not quite up to par with how a real trained WC fighter will fight, but fail to provide any evidence at all of WC being used in this way.

My specific disappointment with you, James, is that you claim that WC is more effective than all other systems, yet you have never actually trained in another system nor really used your WC 100% against people from other systems.

Originally posted by sihing
Why is this so? Because lots on here think most WC practitioners are lazy?
Lazy? No. Brainwashed? Yes.

Originally posted by sihing
Because Wing Chun lacks training or skills in certain ranges of combat, just like the one’s the MMA want us to learn, but fail to see there limitations also?
That’s why most MMA fighters train in different systems… to address the individual weaknesses of each system.

Originally posted by sihing
How can anyone know exactly what thousands of other people are doing, especially when it comes to something as personal as one’s choice of Martial Art?
We can’t. We can only go by the available evidence. Based on the evidence so far, there doesn’t seem to be much effective WC being practiced out there. I’m sure there are probably some WC guys doing some effective stuff, but I’ll bet the majority of the non-fighting theoreticians whould just say they were doing kickboxing or JKD rather than “real” WC.

Originally posted by sihing
which is probably why the May event was first conceived in the first place, but as expected a few on here have taken charge and re-directed the original path of the event (a get together for us to learn more and appreciate one another better) and made it into what they wanted, a sparring/fighting/
If I remember correctly, the May event was originally ALL about sparring. Then the theoreticians came in and started to water it down.

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“Person to person is the only way to really influence others to a great degree, which is probably why the May event was first conceived in the first place, but as expected a few on here have taken charge and re-directed the original path of the event (a get together for us to learn more and appreciate one another better) and made it into what they wanted, a sparring/fighting/lets find out who’s who event with this rule and that, and we will only fight at the level you want to, whatever that means. What will that prove if the full intention on one’s skills may never be allowed to be seen? And if the skills are let loose, then Ego’s will be bruised for sure.” (James)

My God…how pathetic.

I’m not going to Cleveland to do chi sao, James.

And neither am I going there to try and show people that I can beat them in sparring/fighting.

I’m going there to spar - that’s for sure…

But I thought by now that I made it pretty clear that I’m bringing protective equipment…and am willing to go at any intensity people want to go at…30%…50%…80%…100%…

whatever they want - including frequent interruption of the sparring to talk about what just happened…go back and drill that scenario again - before resuming sparring…

very simple and non-confrontational.

No pressure.

And no ego.

What’s your problem?

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Offering this on behalf of my many fellow forum members - both active and lurking - from a wide range of lineages, perspectives, and training styles, and with a diverse range of interests in Wing Chun and Wing Chun related discussion, and whom I greatly appreciate and respect.

Originally posted by t_niehoff
[B]**It’s not WCK – the method – that is in question, but the attitudes and the associated training methods prevalent in what I call “the culture of WCK” (or most TCMAs). That’s two different things. And the “labels” of nonswimmer or theoretican/nonfihgter reflect those prevailing attitudes/approach towards training. I can’t make anyone a nonswimmer; the fact they don’t swim is what makes them a nonswimmer. Recognizing that fact isn’t “labeling”.

**Criticising these attitudes is not a criticism of WCK; nor does that criticism weaken WCK. A fighter only gets better by having their weaknesses (continually) pointed out to him. Those prevalent attitudes seriously limit one’s potential for development, and only by recognizing them and changing can one make significant progress. Ignoring those weaknesses, putting our heads in the sand, [antagonistic and presumptuous]will have certain consequences.

<snip>

**As I said above, it’s not WCK that is being criticized, but the attitude of some (most) of its “practitioners”.

<snip>

**It depends on their goal. If their goal is to really learn and martial art and develop fighting skill (become good swimmers), the prevailing “culture of WCK” will actually prevent it. [see P.P.S. below]

<snip>

**I’m sure some of the theoreticans [name calling and negative baggage] are tired of the “tone”, or more accurately, their attitude (the culture of WCK) being criticized and it being pointed out that there is no evidence to support their beliefs. Persons who fight, who actually do WCK, aren’t going to be put off by a tone of “prove it” or “where is the evidence”. The only persons put off by such a “tone” are those that don’t do it, that can’t do it, that have no evidence. [ad hominem, overgeneralized, presumptuous, and frankly just rude][/B]

Despite trends over past months, I wasn’t aware that the charter of this forum was dedicated singly to the theme of your personal feelings, your values, or your attitudes. Or for that matter, even about your attitudes toward others’ attitudes. It will be very unfortunately if the “climate” of the forum does indeed continue to follow your lead and degrade such that everyone is bent on pressing – or defending - their respective attitudes and values, rather than maintain focus on substantive Wing Chun related discussions. [Mea culpa]

Moreover, it will be a real shame if yet another internet forum with positive potential goes down the tubes on account of others modeling their behavior after yours in stirring up discord and feckless hostilities, whether overtly or in a more skillfully covert manner.

This should be a forum for discussing issues, not fundamentally about critiquing or insulting one another, making generalizations, insinuations, or putting each other “on notice” on the basis of differing attitudes, feelings, and values. There are already plenty of venues on the internet for that kind of nonsense.

On forums such as these, the important line in the sand has little to nothing to do with fighting or swimming, nor something in between or non-of-the-above. It is not some inane matter that everyone should be in agreement all or even some of the time, or holding hands and singing cum-ba-ya. It has everything to do with how we as mature and responsible adults behave toward one another. It takes so much time and effort to build a foundation sufficient to enable constructive communications, and it takes bloody little to destroy it. This reflects, my attitudes, my feelings, and my values which is, after all, what this forum is really about, LOL.

How about giving the forum a break, Terence? The problems on the forum aren’t all to your credit, but a fair share of it is.

Regards,

  • kj

P.S. The swimmer analogy is a metaphor not a “fact”, and it is labeling.

P.P.S. If you want to be a good fighter or swimmer or parachutist or librarian or whatever, other people aren’t your problem or a showstopper if you really want it and make it your priority to succeed. Blaming others for your lack of progress is simply whining; blaming others for your lack of opportunity is a plea to entitlement and failure of your own resourcefulness. IMNSHO. I don’t really think we need to take the forum down the road of religion and politics, but I’m sure there are plenty besides myself willing to oblige if you insist.